Response from Chloe Smith (Red Diesel)

[Stork_III]

The obvious solution is not to go there.

There isn't a real problem. There is a situation that has been deliberately created from a sense of malice. As you well know the red dye used in diesel is designed to be persistent. So any boat that has used red diesel will test +ve for red even after many tanks full of white.

Personally if I see any european yacht fill up with red diesel I will write to the commissioners and report it. Lets see how many non British boats get "dipped"

Bet it its not many

Both your points are wrong.

Where the EU states "test" for red in boats, it is visual, draw off some fueland holdit up to the light. The dye may taint tank and pipes but won't recolour white diesel.

The Belgians fine many more Belgian flagged boats than UK flagged boats.

 

[st599]

That is the absolute point here. Duty free diesel is designated throughout Europe by marking. This principle cannot be compromised, although the UK thinks it can! I don't know what the way forward is.

But duty is paid, albeit at a reduced rate to road duty. As long as it's above EU minimum duty rates, white would be ok.

 

[Beadle]

If it does not discolour white diesel - why do HMRC kep checking lorry tanks?


"The Belgians fine many more Belgian flagged boats than UK flagged boats."

Perhaps the fact that they are in Belgium may influence this statistic.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

As someone who is 'intelligent...competent,...real...sensible...and capable of problerm solving at a high level' what would you do - given that you have to start from a point where red diesel exists and the Europeans won't accept it?

I would legally enforce the installation in marinas and ports of dual output bowsers where the fuel stored in the tank was white but the outlet for duty rebated diesel had a built in dye injection system. Not dissimilar to the way that petrol station pumps have two or three outputs albeit in this case mixing as they dispense.

Engineering wise it would not be at all difficult to do. Willpower wise - well thats different.

 

[GlennG]

If I could get white diesel in many/most marinas, I'd be happy. For the far-flung reaches where work boats outnumber leisure, then the government's suggestion is fine.

I'm sure that when a Belgian plod looks at the diesel, sees that it's pink and attempts to prosecute for "using marked fuel" (no mention of tax -- it's the colour), then he'll be quite happy to get it analysed for dye ratios. When it's below a certain threshold, it's then OK.

The one thing Belgians do, in fact it's their biggest export by far, is bureaucracy.

Thus a little rose should be OK. It's the full-fat red that bothers them. It's not like in road vehicles where zero red is allowed (is it?).

Caveat: IANAL, this needs clarifying and the RYA should fund this.

 

[st599]

If I could get white diesel in many/most marinas, I'd be happy. For the far-flung reaches where work boats outnumber leisure, then the government's suggestion is fine.

I'm sure that when a Belgian plod looks at the diesel, sees that it's pink and attempts to prosecute for "using marked fuel" (no mention of tax -- it's the colour), then he'll be quite happy to get it analysed for dye ratios. When it's below a certain threshold, it's then OK.

The one thing Belgians do, in fact it's their biggest export by far, is bureaucracy.

Thus a little rose should be OK. It's the full-fat red that bothers them. It's not like in road vehicles where zero red is allowed (is it?).

Caveat: IANAL, this needs clarifying and the RYA should fund this.

A little rose isn't ok. As discussed previously ad nauseam, they can detect 0.12 mg/l of dye. Anything above this is illegal. UK red contains 9 mg/l so you need to dilute the red by 100:1 to be safe.

 

[Twister_Ken]

The one thing Belgians do, in fact it's their biggest export by far, is bureaucracy.

I think you've forgotten (how could you? ) chocolate and beer.

 

[Burnham Bob]

The only real problem is the belgians. The dutch and the french are quite happy with the RYA recommendation that you don't have red diesel in cans and that the red diesel in your tank can be shown to be duty paid by producing receipts.

Belgium is simply being a p.i.t.a.

 

[Stork_III]

The only real problem is the belgians. The dutch and the french are quite happy with the RYA recommendation that you don't have red diesel in cans and that the red diesel in your tank can be shown to be duty paid by producing receipts.

Belgium is simply being a p.i.t.a.

What you says was true before the latest HMRC cockup, may not be now.

 

[Koeketiene]

The only real problem is the belgians. The dutch and the french are quite happy with the RYA recommendation that you don't have red diesel in cans and that the red diesel in your tank can be shown to be duty paid by producing receipts.

Belgium is simply being a p.i.t.a.

Solution: don't go there.
40NM of extremely uninspiring coastline littered with sandbanks should be easy enough to avoid.

After all the abuse that has been hurled at the Belgians on here, I'm surprised anyone is even considering going there.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Solution: don't go there.
40NM of extremely uninspiring coastline littered with sandbanks should be easy enough to avoid.

After all the abuse that has been hurled at the Belgians on here, I'm surprised anyone is even considering going there.

Great nightclubs in Zebrugge - you should see the Nightfighters.......

 

[sailorman]

Great nightclubs in Zebrugge - you should see the Nightfighters.......

there is a "Boys Only" night club in Oostende, me n my buddy thought we might pop-in

 

[Beadle]

A little rose isn't ok. As discussed previously ad nauseam, they can detect 0.12 mg/l of dye. Anything above this is illegal. UK red contains 9 mg/l so you need to dilute the red by 100:1 to be safe.

This figure seems to have appeared first as the testing capability and now as actual law.

I have seen nothing about it in any documentation or regulation.

Certainly people have been prosecuted by HMRC for the use of red after the user believed it had been diluted well eyond the 100-1 figure.

My reading of the argument does not show any mention of 100-1 being legal or any other figures. It says if the detect red you are guilty.

No-one has yet answered how vessels from EU countries are going to be able to fill up with diesel in the UK without infringing.

Nor has anyone told me why green diesel does not appear to be an issue - only red.

 

[Koeketiene]

No-one has yet answered how vessels from EU countries are going to be able to fill up with diesel in the UK without infringing.

They're not coming.
Before this thing kicked off, a fair number of Dutch and Belgian boats cruised the East Coast every summer.
Last year I spotted no more than a handful - all of them large enough to suggest that they could make the trip here and back without having to take on fuel in the UK.

Nor has anyone told me why green diesel does not appear to be an issue - only red.

Because very few Irish yachts sail to Belgium perhaps?
We've been on the east Coast for over a decade, and I've only ever seen 1.

 

[maxi77]

This figure seems to have appeared first as the testing capability and now as actual law.

I have seen nothing about it in any documentation or regulation.

Certainly people have been prosecuted by HMRC for the use of red after the user believed it had been diluted well eyond the 100-1 figure.

My reading of the argument does not show any mention of 100-1 being legal or any other figures. It says if the detect red you are guilty.

No-one has yet answered how vessels from EU countries are going to be able to fill up with diesel in the UK without infringing.

Nor has anyone told me why green diesel does not appear to be an issue - only red.

Certainly in the UK the chances of a road vehicle (car or truck) ever being legally able to use red is very close to zero so no allowance for dilution, if it's been in the tank you have broken the law. On a boat that has been legally able to use red the traces may well be allowable

 

[Chris_Robb]

there is a "Boys Only" night club in Oostende, me n my buddy thought we might pop-in

Well sailors will be sailors dear.....

 

[Elemental]

This figure seems to have appeared first as the testing capability and now as actual law.

I have seen nothing about it in any documentation or regulation.

The document that's the basis for our calculation is here. Go ahead and read it. Essentially, it describes the marker that should be used and states that the tests become unreliable (giving false positives) at concentrations of less than 0.12mg/l. You are correct when you say that this doesn't state that it is the legally acceptable limit, but it follows that the specified marker, becoming unreliable (and therefore 'undetectable') cannot be trusted at low concentrations. It effectively becomes the law as any conviction could be challenged citing this EU document

Certainly people have been prosecuted by HMRC for the use of red after the user believed it had been diluted well eyond the 100-1 figure.

Please cite an example.

My reading of the argument does not show any mention of 100-1 being legal or any other figures. It says if the detect red you are guilty.

"detect" being the operative word. I refer you to the EU document

No-one has yet answered how vessels from EU countries are going to be able to fill up with diesel in the UK without infringing.

They're not.

 

[donaldson]

I have mailed my Belgian courtesy flag to the Belgian Embassy with a covering note explaining that I will no longer need it. This will continue to apply even if they change their attitude and make things less hostile for visiting yachtsmen, citizens of the EU.

I visited all the Belgian North Sea ports last summer - an overpriced, poor and boring country. I was grateful for the Dutch sailors along the way who helped me with local knowledge. I speak French, unfortunately well enough that the locals in the Flemish speaking area which I visited thought I was from the other half of their population with whom they do not converse in a civil manner.

 

[maby]

The document that's the basis for our calculation is here. Go ahead and read it. Essentially, it describes the marker that should be used and states that the tests become unreliable (giving false positives) at concentrations of less than 0.12mg/l. You are correct when you say that this doesn't state that it is the legally acceptable limit, but it follows that the specified marker, becoming unreliable (and therefore 'undetectable') cannot be trusted at low concentrations. It effectively becomes the law as any conviction could be challenged citing this EU document
...

It goes further than that - the report referenced specifically says :

"A target for the method is to make it possible to penalise drivers using fuel with a concentration of SY124 above 0.12 mg/L. It is therefore important that the method does not produce false positive results above 0.12 mg/L."

 

[RAI]

Ask your marina

How about talking to your marinas about their attitude to the red/white divide? Some of them may well see the need to provide white as well (or instead of) red diesel. Particularly those marinas that see a lot of EU traffic in both directions and those with big thirsty mobo customers who channel hop. Once one opens up on the South coast, watch it become a magnet for fuel sales.
As Cloe says, it's a commercial issue now.
In Belgium they were simply told to steam clean their tanks and sell only white. They did just that. Fishermen et Al hardly ever used the marinas' pumps anyway.
Although the French and Dutch are not following Belgium's hard line, you can bet their C&E are watching developments carefully. Their yachtsmen will be returning home with red otherwise.