Response from Chloe Smith (Red Diesel)

[prv]

Are you being deliberately obtuse, or does it come naturally?

When you're in another country, since when have you ever had the choice to comply with the local legislation or not? And not expect to get fined?

You seem to have missed the point rather dramatically.

Strictly speaking, one almost always has a choice whether to comply with the law. I could choose to go and smash in Sainsbury's window with a sledgehammer right now if I chose to; there's nothing physically preventing me.

However, there will be consequences to that choice. As Maxi said, you can "comply or not, [choosing] 'not' usually picks up penalties."

Pete

 

[prv]

Over the years far more Dutch and Belgian yachts than UK boats have been fined for having red diesel.

Yep, that's what I would have assumed. But I didn't know, so all I could say for sure was that they believed they would be fined.

The do not believe that action will be taken against them, action is already being taken to fine them.

Eh? Are you sure you meant the first half of that sentence?

Pete

 

[Elemental]

In reality other countries can have any laws they want, and when you are there your options are to comply or not, not usually picks up penalties.

Are you being deliberately obtuse, or does it come naturally?

When you're in another country, since when have you ever had the choice to comply with the local legislation or not? And not expect to get fined?

Guapa, I fear you miss maxi77's point. He's saying that if you choose to not comply then you'll get penalties...

 

[maxi77]

Are you being deliberately obtuse, or does it come naturally?

When you're in another country, since when have you ever had the choice to comply with the local legislation or not? And not expect to get fined?

What next? People from the continent driving cars over here on the right?
After all, it's legal on the continent and they just choose not to comply.

I was because the post I was replying to was suggesting that it was in some way wrong and fascist for a country to have laws he disagreed with.

 

[Chris_Robb]

In reality other countries can have any laws they want, and when you are there your options are to comply or not, not usually picks up penalties.

That I do believe is NOT the case with any signatory country of the European Union. That is the whole point of "harminization" or what ever its called. The laws - especially on Duties and more especially on marked diesel are EU wide - we should not have agreed to them in the first place - but some idiot back sliding civil servant EU lover slithered hid greasy mitt across a piece of paper called a treaty backed by an equally slithery MP on the lookout for jobs and pensions for life at the EU when he/she failed as a politician, and wanted to collect his/her 2nd or 3rd multiple pensions for doing Buggerall Uuuuurrrrgghhhhhh

 

[Beadle]

I was because the post I was replying to was suggesting that it was in some way wrong and fascist for a country to have laws he disagreed with.

The Belgiums neighbours used to have laws requiring people to hand over Jewish people to be killed - who would obey them?

No-one with any sense of morality I would suggest

Just because a law exists does not make using it just or right or moral.

It does I believe put an obligation for anyone with a sense of justice to oppose such laws as strongly as they are able.

And before I receive any silly responses I am NOT drawing a comparison, I am merely illustrating a principle.

 

[ukmctc]

We scratched our heads for five minutes, couldn't come up with a better solution, so there you go. Those of you "going foreign" are on your own!!

Yep, thats it. In home waters we have our laws and in foreign waters we obey their rules as it should be.
It is simple take the risk or buy white, get over it!

 

[ukmctc]

The Belgiums neighbours used to have laws requiring people to hand over Jewish people to be killed - who would obey them?

No-one with any sense of morality I would suggest

Just because a law exists does not make using it just or right or moral.

It does I believe put an obligation for anyone with a sense of justice to oppose such laws as strongly as they are able.

And before I receive any silly responses I am NOT drawing a comparison, I am merely illustrating a principle.

If you don't agree with laws here write a letter, tell your MP, stand on speakers corner, if you don't like the laws in another country don't go there, or when you do just comply with them after all the people there seem to like it.
Its diesel!!!!! nothing todo with morality or religion, if your not drawing a comparison, why would you write it? just having a Kraft moment I suspect....or just blethering BS.

 

[Beadle]

If you don't agree with laws here write a letter, tell your MP, stand on speakers corner, if you don't like the laws in another country don't go there, or when you do just comply with them after all the people there seem to like it.
Its diesel!!!!! nothing todo with morality or religion, if your not drawing a comparison, why would you write it? just having a Kraft moment I suspect....or just blethering BS.

The EU is supposed to unite Europe.

It is supposed to work to a single set of rules

It is supposed to bring countries and peoples together

Thats why they call it a Union (look it up)

This law is being used AGAINST a member of the union

That is why they have only recently started using this interpretation

The law has been in place for some years but has not been used until very recently - why?

What is the reason that this law exists? for what purpose was it created?

 

[Beadle]

"Try diving a diesel car in the UK with a hint of red in the tank and find out what those nice people at HMRC think, even if you had bought the stuff originally for your boat and paid 100% duty on it."

Yes

They will indeed prosecute you

They will prosecute you for EVADING TAX

Let me say that again

They will prosecute you for EVADING TAX

Exactly as they would have done had you put parafin in the tank - and that could be any colour.

That is precisely WHY the red dye is put in diesel - to allow illegal users to be prosecuted for evasion of tax.

It has no other purpose

 

[maxi77]

The Belgiums neighbours used to have laws requiring people to hand over Jewish people to be killed - who would obey them?

No-one with any sense of morality I would suggest

Just because a law exists does not make using it just or right or moral.

It does I believe put an obligation for anyone with a sense of justice to oppose such laws as strongly as they are able.

And before I receive any silly responses I am NOT drawing a comparison, I am merely illustrating a principle.

And doing it very badly, and I suspect you really do wish people to make the comparison you claim not to be making.

 

[Beadle]

And doing it very badly, and I suspect you really do wish people to make the comparison you claim not to be making.

I know perfectly well what I mean and what I do not mean.

I was seeking to point out that laws need a basis for their existance. They should exist to prevent wrong-do, to protect people or even to raise tax. This law as being (mis)used by the Belgians does non of these things. It is being used against people from one country to disadvantage those people for being what they are.

And in any sense of morality or justice that is wrong.

 

[Beadle]

Yep, thats it. In home waters we have our laws and in foreign waters we obey their rules as it should be.
It is simple take the risk or buy white, get over it!

The simple question I ask you is HOW?

My boat has a 120HP Diesel

The tank holds just under 100 gallons

I am 62 years old, I have a dicky heart, Diabetes, and the remnant problems of a broken hip.

Do you seriously expect me to carry 70 or 80 gallons of diesel from the car park to the boat?

 

[GlennG]

The simple question I ask you is HOW?

My boat has a 120HP Diesel

The tank holds just under 100 gallons

I am 62 years old, I have a dicky heart, Diabetes, and the remnant problems of a broken hip.

Do you seriously expect me to carry 70 or 80 gallons of diesel from the car park to the boat?

And that perfectly illustrates the mess our government, as advised by the RYA, has got us into.

 

[nimbusgb]

The only effect is to make it effectively impossible for British yachts to visit mainland Europe. I have no doubts that there will be no action taken against European yachts that top up in the UK.

Actually there is the additional effect that NO European boats are likely to visit UK ports given that their tanks will be contaminated with red if they fill up or even top off here.

I wonder what further drop off in custom the south coast will see this season and whether anyone will join the dots?

 

[Chris_Robb]

The simple question I ask you is HOW?

My boat has a 120HP Diesel

The tank holds just under 100 gallons

I am 62 years old, I have a dicky heart, Diabetes, and the remnant problems of a broken hip.

Do you seriously expect me to carry 70 or 80 gallons of diesel from the car park to the boat?

And remember all that FAME to cause you problems and risk your life.....

 

[maby]

"Try diving a diesel car in the UK with a hint of red in the tank and find out what those nice people at HMRC think, even if you had bought the stuff originally for your boat and paid 100% duty on it."

Yes

They will indeed prosecute you

They will prosecute you for EVADING TAX

Let me say that again

They will prosecute you for EVADING TAX

Exactly as they would have done had you put parafin in the tank - and that could be any colour.

That is precisely WHY the red dye is put in diesel - to allow illegal users to be prosecuted for evasion of tax.

It has no other purpose

And if people were not using the red diesel concession that we currently have to EVADE TAX, they would not be screaming anywhere near as loud at the prospect of losing it! There are mobo owners claiming that a switch to white diesel will cost them a thousand pounds per year - there is no way that any private leisure craft can legally burn that much rebated diesel - well, possible one owned by Abramavitch, but he does not post here.

 

[sailorman]

And if people were not using the red diesel concession that we currently have to EVADE TAX, they would not be screaming anywhere near as loud at the prospect of losing it! There are mobo owners claiming that a switch to white diesel will cost them a thousand pounds per year - there is no way that any private leisure craft can legally burn that much rebated diesel - well, possible one owned by Abramavitch, but he does not post here.

as his boat would be set up as commercial venture. he will be able to use red quite legitimately & claim the cost of it against tax

 

[maby]

And that perfectly illustrates the mess our government, as advised by the RYA, has got us into.

The blame lays fairly and squarely with the RYA - I'm sure that the government's interest in the topic is very close to zero and they are rapidly wishing that we would all quietly sink and go away. The RYA listened far too much to the big mobo lobby and completley ignored the sailors that were at its roots - the raggie cruisers. Perhaps it's time for serious sailors to form a breakaway organisation that supports serious sailing?

 

[maby]

as his boat would be set up as commercial venture. he will be able to use red quite legitimately & claim the cost of it against tax

If that is the case, he has a far better accountant than we do - when we asked ours to put the boat as a company asset, she laughed us out of her office!