Replying to the MCA consultation

[Tomahawk]

Reading through the thread on the MCA consultation it is clear there is a lot of concern about this "initiative". Someone commented that the RYA seem very silent.

How about we prepare a joint response from the most widely read boating forum in the UK? (we know it is the most widely read boating forum in the UK because YBW tell us it it)

 

[Kukri]

I am frankly staggered by the RYA’s inertia on this - yes I am an individual member - and I think the more responses the better - individual and collective.

 

[halcyon]

Reading through the thread on the MCA consultation it is clear there is a lot of concern about this "initiative". Someone commented that the RYA seem very silent.

How about we prepare a joint response from the most widely read boating forum in the UK? (we know it is the most widely read boating forum in the UK because YBW tell us it it)

My concern is that we appear to be ignoring commercial insurance policies, if they remove safety critical cover, the professional will not do that work, so who does ?

Brian

 

[capnsensible]

Could it be that the RYA as a pro organisation is investigating and preparing a considered response?

Better than the knee jerky stuff you read on here.........

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Could it be that the RYA as a pro organisation is investigating and preparing a considered response?

Better than the knee jerky stuff you read on here.........

I doubt that they will go against MCA "recommendations" especially where "safety" aspects are concerned.

 

[Tomahawk]

I doubt that they will go against MCA "recommendations" especially where "safety" aspects are concerned.

Lets not get involved with arguing with each other.
I think the more pressing issue is to reply to the consultation with a considered approach.

 

[langstonelayabout]

My concern is that we appear to be ignoring commercial insurance policies, if they remove safety critical cover, the professional will not do that work, so who does ?

I've already objected to the 6x proposed MGNs and had a proper response from the MCA. From their response I gather:

1 - The MCA have already engaged with the RYA to get to this point (hence little RYA inertia).
2 - The insurance companies are all commercial and can do their own thing. The MCA is creating legal regulations.
3 - The MCA response didn't answer all of my questions fully but did confirm that they weren't prepared to use the term 'competent' for a person that they would consider was OK to work on safety critical systems.

So, if it all goes terribly wrong, I can see us all doing the RYA diesel engine courses and also our RYA recognised sailing clubs forming 'Boards' to interview us and declare/document us as 'experienced' enough to maintain our own rigs, engines and apply our own antifouling.

 

[Kukri]

The first thing that I want to know is “Why are the MCA going beyond the scope of work given them by the Judge (small commercial craft) and taking upon themselves matters that the Judge gave to the RYA?.

And why are the RYA going along with this?

 

[halcyon]

I've already objected to the 6x proposed MGNs and had a proper response from the MCA. From their response I gather:

1 - The MCA have already engaged with the RYA to get to this point (hence little RYA inertia).
2 - The insurance companies are all commercial and can do their own thing. The MCA is creating legal regulations.
3 - The MCA response didn't answer all of my questions fully but did confirm that they weren't prepared to use the term 'competent' for a person that they would consider was OK to work on safety critical systems.

So, if it all goes terribly wrong, I can see us all doing the RYA diesel engine courses and also our RYA recognised sailing clubs forming 'Boards' to interview us and declare/document us as 'experienced' enough to maintain our own rigs, engines and apply our own antifouling.

But some insurance companies have already bought in safety critical exclusions, admittedly only on boat navigation ( propulsion / steering ) and at least one stopped marine cover. The above is for a business working in the marine industry, not comercial vessel.

Brian

 

[Tomahawk]

I think we should be focussing on the extent to which this a problem that needs to be addressed.

How nay accidents happen each year compared to other types of accidents?

CR and Hooligan VIII were high profile cases. But how many yachts a year founder after a grounding?
How many accidents are actually caused by amateur maintenance?
How many accidents are caused by someone changing the prop, adding a furling genny, changing a pipe from an "approved" one to an alternative etc?

Is the imposition of "professional only" maintenance a potential cause of further risk by way of imposing extra expense on owners.
To what extent is "professional only" maintenance a proportionate response to a problem?
Does "professional only" maintenance absolve the boat owner from responsibility?

 

[JumbleDuck]

But some insurance companies have already bought in safety critical exclusions, admittedly only on boat navigation ( propulsion / steering ) and at least one stopped marine cover. The above is for a business working in the marine industry, not comercial vessel.

Have all insurance companies refused to cover anyone doing this work or has one insurance company refused to cover one person?

 

[halcyon]

Have all insurance companies refused to cover anyone doing this work or has one insurance company refused to cover one person?

One pulled out of doing product liability / public liability, broker spent two weeks going round to find two who would offer cover, but with marine safety critical limitation, At the time I thought it odd that safety critical had popped up, then this thread suddenly linked in with it and the MCA, even though the MCA did not intend it, The case opened a loop hole for the future that professional cover could become liable for an accident more easily, so they cover themselves before it occurs.

Brian

 

[scrambledegg]

I think we should be focussing on the extent to which this a problem that needs to be addressed.

How nay accidents happen each year compared to other types of accidents?

CR and Hooligan VIII were high profile cases. But how many yachts a year founder after a grounding?
How many accidents are actually caused by amateur maintenance?
How many accidents are caused by someone changing the prop, adding a furling genny, changing a pipe from an "approved" one to an alternative etc?

Yes we would all love to know the actual statistics and then we could form an opinion about whether any of this regulation is justifiable. However I don't think any such statistics exist - except perhaps where fatalities occur. Even where fatalities occur the reasons for it are almost never attributable to a single cause, still less attributable to specific issues of neglect of maintenance or departure from the original design intent of the boat. I'd be most surprised if there is any quantitative analysis behind the MCA's sudden zealous interest.

 

[Tomahawk]

I found this after just five minutes of searching

https://www.nationalwatersafety.org.uk/waid/reports-and-data/

The majority of incidents occurred at the coast/shore/beach (68) or on rivers (64). As in previous years, a large proportion of those who died did so while taking part in an activity in which they never intended to be in the water – 106 people drowned while walking or running.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Yes we would all love to know the actual statistics and then we could form an opinion about whether any of this regulation is justifiable. However I don't think any such statistics exist - except perhaps where fatalities occur.

There are probably some statistics on how many RNLI callouts to pleasure craft are linked to poor maintenance. I'd be surprised if it's much less than 80%.

 

[dom]

There are probably some statistics on how many RYA callouts to pleasure craft are linked to poor maintenance. I'd be surprised if it's much less than 80%.

Although 80% of zero is still zero!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Tomahawk has opened the door , where do we go from here ? , or do we wait till it's too late .

 

[scrambledegg]

Tomahawk has opened the door , where do we go from here ? , or do we wait till it's too late .

Good question. It seems to me that we shouldn't give up on the RYA too quickly, they have fought this battle against creeping oversight/legalism for a long time.

 

[Gwylan]

Think we should seek real separation between professional boats and private individual owners

That is if you are in business chartering boats, so Coded, or carrying passengers for reward then the passengers have a right to be protected.

If you are a private owner then you have a self interest and moral obligation to maintain your vessel in good order.

I assume the regulations for airlines are different to those applicable to light aircraft.
That's the kind of differentiation that needs to be made.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Think we should seek real separation between professional boats and private individual owners

That is if you are in business chartering boats, so Coded, or carrying passengers for reward then the passengers have a right to be protected.

If you are a private owner then you have a self interest and moral obligation to maintain your vessel in good order.

I assume the regulations for airlines are different to those applicable to light aircraft.
That's the kind of differentiation that needs to be made.

All this came about because a twat blurred the lines between pleasure and commercial in the sake of £ and expediency.