removeable forestay

[30boat]

My Fulmar has a thinner section mast than later units and I would like to fit a removeable forestay for the storm jib.
I'm a bit jittery when it comes to drill holes in masts let alone in highly loaded areas as should be the bit right under the forestay attachment.
The mast can bend quite a lot when I apply the backstay adjuster wich is a 16 to 1 tackle.
So,has it been done on 3/4 rigs?or should I forget about that(wich I'd rather do) and get one of those wraparound stormjibs?
I haven't the faintest idea of how this type of sail really performs as I could never find a report on it.
Thanks

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[paulrossall]

How often are you going to use a storm jib? Unless you are circumnavigating or similar I would have thought the idea was to avoid situations where a storm jib was required. If the wind gets up a bit cannot you just roll in most of your genoa? The last thing you want to do is rig a storm jib that puts excesive pressure on your mast in the wrong place.
When others are flying storm jibs I recon it's the time for me to be supporting the brewing industry! IMHO. Paul

<hr width=100% size=1>" there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats".

 

[jerryat]

Hi 30boat,

I've fitted a second forestay to my Fulmar and it's been fine for many thousands of miles. I made the top attachment about a foot or so below the existing forestay and fitted a deck plate about where the existing main foredeck cleat was. The cleat was moved to accomodate the change. In order for the loads to be distributed properly, the deck plate was fitted 'back to back' with it's twin underdeck, which was in turn, tensioned via a s/s adjustable strop (a bottlescrew and studs) to an s/s eye through bolted to the very bottom of the anchor well bulkhead. The area was heavily reinforced with grp.

We have flown the storm jib from this 'inner' forestay in some very lumpy weather very successfully, and a jib when running in the 'Trades'.

Hope this helps,

Cheers
jerry


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[Talbot]

Talk to the manufacturer of your mast, he will be able to tell you exactly what you can and cant do with it. <ost of themare quite happy to discuss things with them (especially at the boat show!)

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[William_H]

You are right to be concerned about puting holes in the mast anywhere between the areas supported by stays. You can safely (reasonably) put holes near the base near the top and near the midpoint supported by intermediate side stays for a masthead rig. For fractional you put a large hole in the front of the mast for the jib halyard exit however even though this is a bend area the main loads are from compression from forestay and shrouds the load from the backstay /mainsail are not so bad so the hole at this point doesn't seem to matter so much.
For a removeable forestay presumably you want it inside the roller reefing jib so ...
A stay from the spreaders to the bow just aft of the main forestay. For a masthead rig you already have an inner forestay so this would be forward of the inner but it would be simpler to use the existing inner. For a fractional rig the removeable inner forestay would be good additional support for the mast but would only carry a small storm jib. You may haver a spinnacker pole topping lift at this point that can be used as a halyard. The proximity to the mainsail may improve sail balance and give more interaction jib to main so possibly better windward performance.
A stay from just below the main forestay attachment to clear the roller gear down to a point a little aft of the main forestay attachment. This arrangement could carry a jib larger than storm for times when you want real windward performance in stiff breezes with a properly cut and set jib. (I am not a fan of roller jibs)
You should build a high field lever to enable you to easily attach and tension the tempory forestay as you don't want it loose. PM me if you want details on highfield lever. regards will

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[staugur]

skippered a couple of boats of all sizes up to 250' including Velsheda(before she got engines) so there's some experience here. The first obvious question is why a storm jib? In real survival conditions the whole idea is to take the stress off the vessel and get the thing balanced so you can at least enjoy the situation and get where your going.If you have to pump up to weather then what you need is a staysail and main-obviously reefed to the size of your cohones but the boat stays balanced with no undue strain. Sticking a handkerchief out the front is asking for trouble and whilst I have no idea of the rig on a Fulmar if you don't have standing or running backstays to support this rag I wouldn't consider it. What you can do is become inventive. you know your boat better than me so decide how much main you can carry in survival conditions,maybe third reef. Fabricate a wire strop covered in something that won't strip the mast and you can shackle through the headboard. Thoughbolt an attachment in the foredeck and make a removable stay,I'm sure your getting the picture!! Don't make the staysail bigger than the triangle your trying to fill and if you want the optimum make a small boom for it and it becomes self tacking.The beauty of this is if you get totally in the merde it's all controlled by the main halliard. I'm old as the hills now but I sailed an old enginleless pilot cutter round the world in my youth and had a lot of time to think these things out and they all work.Think balance and simplicity and you can't go wrong.

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[30boat]

Well I've been caught in gales with my boat but that was before I fitted the roller reefing.I used my trusty old nº 4 jib and it all worked fine.Next year I'm sailing to the Azores and I want to be prepared.

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[30boat]

My problem is that the mast is really thin .I've seen more recent Fulmars and the masts are much beefier.Still ,I think that with a properly designed fitting it might work.I not a fan of Roller Reefing myself and I avoid rolling the genoa wich is new and made by Kemp Sails.It sets so well it seems a crime to roll it up.So I also want to be able to use my old but in very good shape heavy weather jib when beating to windward.

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[30boat]

You have a few good ideas there.I'll think about them...

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[Rick]

I'll play devils advocate here - no disrespect, but if you're not sure about adding this load bearing device, then it's a job for a rigger. Staying of a mast structure is all about resolving load - as one poster noted about the reinforcement and strap to the bulkhead below the chainplate, the load at the other end also needs to be resolved.

If you land a stay on the mast not only does it need to remain attached to the mast, but it also needs to feed those loads out somewhere - in some cases this is resolved by attaching the forestay at spreader height (where aft lowers get to take the load) or to the masthead, so the backstay can do the work. In others, runners are installed to take the load. I'd strongly suggest you get a rigger involved.


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[staugur]

Don't want to persue this to the point of aggravation but most people seem to be missing the point and maybe my last post was a lttle flippant.If you use a removable stay don't drill a hole in the deck and stick an eye bolt in there,it's going to pull through.Obviously you need to transfer loads and theres some really nice fittings on the market to do this.I had a swan 44 with a removable inner forestay which normally lived attached to one of the lowers but when you needed it you popped it in this deck fitting,cranked it over centre with a winch handle and that was it.It was supported internally with plates through one of the bulkheads.There were a pair of running backstays to tension it and they normally were just tied off to the mast.My point is think staysail not storm jib. Go read Moitessier,Hiscock,Slocum,Hasler and the rest.Why did all these guys and the girls sail cutters? Once you have rigged your boat this way and you have a nice little heavy staysail to get your self out of trouble get a bigger reaching staysail made and see how your boat performs in light weather-those slots work.In conclusion,nearly every boat I've owned or skippered had a storm jib on board,all unused.I've only ever used them hanked on the backstay and sheeted forward as a steadying sail at anchor exept for Velsheda when we realised that we could set it as a jib topsail in light airs.Obrigado.

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[30boat]

I completely agree with you.I already have a good staysail that I intend to use as I hate a partially furled jib.
I still have to think about it but I think I can use the existing forestay fitting for the removeable stay as well.
The deck bit shouldn't pose any problems because the anchor bulkhead is at the right place and should take the load nicely once suitably reinforced with epoxy and glass.I have a bit of experience both in fiberglass work and TIG welding having already rebuilt two boats,wich helps .



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[tome]

Posted this in raply to another thread on SB, but it may be relevant here also:

We fitted a removable inner forestay this season. The boat is masthead rigged, and the new stay goes to within a foot of the forestay at the top. At deck level, we fitted a deck plate with a chain plate going onto the aft bulkead of the anchor locker. When not in use, the inner is stowed next to a cap shroud. This allows us to set it without runners.

Both storm jib (100 sq ft) and No 3 (~250 sq ft) were fitted with hanks. The 150% furling genoa is around 500 sq ft. There's no way we would attempt to drop the genoa in rising winds, so now we can just furl it away. If we're expecting any more than F4 to windward we set the inner stay and the No3. Have carried this up to 40knots AWS and she is a delight to handle with the main reefed down (have 3 reefs). We sail as fast as we would with a furled genoa, but point better with less weather helm.

I had adopted this arrangement for just occasional use, being no fan of partially furled genoas, but am surprised just how often we've used it this year. The boat is so well balanced that it makes her very sure-footed in bigger seas. Now thinking of fitting a second set of cars to make changeovers easier.

In rising winds I can set up the stay and hank on the sail ready to go, then only have to go to the mast to hoist and can then furl the genoa from the cockpit. Provided it is readied in good time, this saves the foredeck dance and I think it's the best compromise for us.

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[robmurray]

Re: Tensioning

I have a removeable inner forestay for my masthead rig and plan to get a no3 for heavier weather. Current arrangement has block and tackle type tensioning (I take a line back to a winch to get it really taught). Have looked into Highfield lever but this is £500. Is this worth the extra money or should I be able to get eniough forestay tension with existing set up?

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[charles_reed]

The holes in the mast aren't the problem but the lack of support at the forestay attachment might prove the problem.
To be safe you'll need to have running backstays up to the point of attachment of the forestay.

PS If the mast does go don't try and buy in the UK - go straight to Z-Spars in Perigny.

PSS Talk to Lulu on +335 46 45 42 02 - he's a 1st class rigger and speaks good English.

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[Robin]

Re: Tensioning

When we fitted an additional forestay on our old W33 the rigger (Alan Barwell at Cobbs Quay, Poole) made up an adjuster from an old S/S bottle screw with some 'ears' made of bent rod welded to the body to give enough puchase to turn it by hand. Cheap and cheerful but it worked. Our current boat has a bigger and more sophisticated commercial version with fold down handles and threaded parts covered with plastic shrouds to retain the grease on the threads, like a backstay adjuster. £500 seems a huge amount of money to me.

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[charles_reed]

\'Tis another bit of string

to prove one's a true-blue sailor.

I'd agree - in any case my limited experience, borne out by the Sidney-Hobart inquiry - is that in real storm conditions most storm jibs are just too big.

My yankee rolled on the Rotostay has proved quite manageable up to a genuine apparent 48 knots to windward and a 4th reef in the main gets that down to manageable proportions.

Great believer myself in the KISS principle.

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[staugur]

Theres the blind and theres them that cannot see.Lets assume you have a suitable attachment point on the foredeck for the stay that will carry your heavy weather sail(staysail,inner jib call it what you will) Attatch the top end of this stay to the mast with a nice form hugging plate that you will rivet on there nowhere near to any spreaders because they have already weakened the mast by the holes drilled in it to accomodate them and don't be fooled by the earlier post that said the after lower shrouds will support the stay.Shrouds support lateral loads and nothing else unless you believe the french.Spend the extra money and keep it parallel to the fore stay if only for asthetics but it does make it easier to tack the jib or genoa through that big gap.Theres an easily found piece of hardware out there that I cant remember the name of but its basically an off centre hook with a ring you drop over it to lock(common guys) The removable runners that you tension this rig with only need to be a two part block run through a jam cleat-nobodies racing here-your trying to stay alive and if it sags off a bit so be it but it ain't going to fall down.Incidentally how many of the people posting here have been offshore?Anyway "slowboat" check out Flanders and Swan,Madeira is far superior to the azores as in "have some madeira my dear,I have a small cask of it here"May the beam winds blow for you "

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[charles_reed]

<<Shrouds support lateral loads and nothing else unless you believe the french.>>
They also support fore-and-aft loads if they are swept back more than 22.5 degrees.

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[charles_reed]

<<Theres an easily found piece of hardware out there that I cant remember the name of but its basically an off centre hook with a ring you drop over it to lock(common guys) >>
Pelican hook?

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