Regulatory oversight of not for profit company selling crew berths on offshore passages/races

[eddystone]

I recently completed the ARC 2022 as paying crew on a boat offering places on a commercial basis. There were major issues over the preparation of the boat for an offshore passage in spite of it being coded 0 and I am wondering if any body has an regulatory oversight. They are not an RYA accredited centre and clearly beneath MCA radar. Where would you take your concerns?

 

[eddystone]

Should this be in the yacht racing forum?

 

[PhillM]

I would start with the MCA. There were some reports of British flagged boats being checked before a ARC a while back. So it may be that a call to them could be fruitful. Of course if it’s not a British outfit then they have no jurisdiction. In which case you would need to talk to the flagged state. However, if that are advertising in the U.K. then the advertising standards people might be interested.

 

[dankilb]

+1 - nothing directly to do with RYA, as far as I can see, but the MCA would have oversight (and a keen interest) if a UK flagged boat.

 

[MikeCC]

Definitely not beneath MCA radar if coded under UK registration as they are the official body. Ask any small commercial fishing boat how seriously MCA take inspections and compliance ....

 

[glynd]

A quick look at the ARC entry list identifies who I suspect you are talking about...

I am a bit surprised that boat is coded cat0 - can't see the expected bulkheads in their photos.

They also seem to break at least one requirement in the specs page they list.
Specifically, Cat 0 requires liferafts such that if one was lost there would still be enough capacity for all peoples - ie they would need at least three 6 man life rafts, not two.

I assume there were a *total* of 12 on board including any skipper / 1st mate ...

 

[john_morris_uk]

The MCA would definitely be interested. I’m not sure how the boat you were on can be identified easily from your description as I’m aware that lots of ARC boats have ‘paying crew’ onboard. The adverts offering a places for crewing on the ARC are numerous. (It’s one of the things that puts me off ARC; it appears to have become very commercial with larger and larger boats taking part.)

I’m also surprised at the lack of gear as I thought all ARC boats were inspected for safety gear by WCC before they were allowed to take part?

 

[eddystone]

Thanks for information. I’m writing a long email to the company on a series of issues, many safety related and will send redacted version to MCA.
To give you a flavour:
1. Because the crew were working long days on fixing things wrong with the boat for the week prior to the start there was no time to go out and practice - the first time we all went out was on the way to the start line! We never did an MOB drill.
2. I and another crew member were cleaning out the bilge sections around keel bolts and after drying and closing lumber holes some salty tasting seapage occurred around some bolts. Another crew member was on board for the passage from La Coruna to Gib and experienced an impact strong enough to deflect the boat 90 degrees ( he showed me a screenshot of the track). In spite of this the owner resisted having it lifted for inspection in Las Palmas, although a diver did go down the day before we left.

 

[glynd]

I’m not sure how the boat you were on can be identified easily from your description as I’m aware that lots of ARC boats have ‘paying crew’ onboard.

Organisations like this tend to operate in the racing division….
Only a handful of entries in that for the 2022 ARC. Not naming as OP didn’t name.

 

[dunedin]

Thanks for information. I’m writing a long email to the company on a series of issues, many safety related and will send redacted version to MCA.
To give you a flavour:
1. Because the crew were working long days on fixing things wrong with the boat for the week prior to the start there was no time to go out and practice - the first time we all went out was on the way to the start line! We never did an MOB drill.
2. I and another crew member were cleaning out the bilge sections around keel bolts and after drying and closing lumber holes some salty tasting seapage occurred around some bolts. Another crew member was on board for the passage from La Coruna to Gib and experienced an impact strong enough to deflect the boat 90 degrees ( he showed me a screenshot of the track). In spite of this the owner resisted having it lifted for inspection in Las Palmas, although a diver did go down the day before we left.

Wow, I can see why you want to raise concerns - especially if there was an impact on the leg to Gibraltar. Not sure the type of boat, but I might have regretfully pulled out before crossing the pond.

 

[dunedin]

The MCA would definitely be interested. I’m not sure how the boat you were on can be identified easily from your description as I’m aware that lots of ARC boats have ‘paying crew’ onboard. The adverts offering a places for crewing on the ARC are numerous. (It’s one of the things that puts me off ARC; it appears to have become very commercial with larger and larger boats taking part.)

I’m also surprised at the lack of gear as I thought all ARC boats were inspected for safety gear by WCC before they were allowed to take part?

The ARC do insist on strict inspection of safety gear to ARC standards - been there and witnessed that, with thorough and sensible inspections done by experienced people. Clearly they cant and don’t check everything, that is the skipper / owner responsibilities (eg don’t inspect underneath for keel damage, and don’t check to other standards which may apply based on flag state rules, which differ by flag and usage).

From my experience the paying crew boats do not detract from the enjoyment of the ARC. The people who don’t like the ARC seem mainly to come from people who have not done the event. The feedback surveys - formal and informal - of those that have done the event tend to be extremely positive about the ARC organisers and the event.

And it is great that through the paid berth boats many more people get experience of doing what can be a “once in a lifetime” or “life changing” experience, most of whom lack the funds, expertise or crews to do in any other way, Not everybody can afford the huge expense of their own boats, or the time to do a longer voyage.

(Though personally I would want to choose a paid berth boat very carefully before signing up. The boat next to us pre departure was a Cheeki Rafiki sister ship, with 8 crowded on board and no bimini. They were a youthful crew and had a great time, by all accounts. I was happy to be on a heavier boat (with galvanised steel frame supporting the keel and rig) and more space with just 4 on board, but clearly privileged due to relative affluence of skipper)

 

[benjenbav]

Wow, I can see why you want to raise concerns - especially if there was an impact on the leg to Gibraltar. Not sure the type of boat, but I might have regretfully pulled out before crossing the pond.

Indeed.

 

[john_morris_uk]

From my experience the paying crew boats do not detract from the enjoyment of the ARC. The people who don’t like the ARC seem mainly to come from people who have not done the event. The feedback surveys - formal and informal - of those that have done the event tend to be extremely positive about the ARC organisers and the event.

Post Purchase Rationalisation in Shoppers - Adcock Solutions

I haven’t been part of ARC and the more I hear about it the less likely I am to cough up a substantial sum of money for some parties and the illusion of safety by allegedly sailing in company. I’ve no doubt the social life is exciting but I’m not sure it’s worth the money…. (Furthermore my experience of ocean sailing is you rarely see another boat or ship for days or weeks…)

My feelings may be influenced by the fact that if we had joined this years ARC, at 39’ we’d have been the fifth smallest boat. Perhaps I just feel inadequate?

 

[glynd]

My feelings may be influenced by the fact that if we had joined this years ARC, at 39’ we’d have been the fifth smallest boat. Perhaps I just feel inadequate?

I did it a few years ago as the opportunity came up.
The biggest point I noted based on the failures that other yachts seemed to have is that I'd want a secondary windvane steering system / lots of spares for steering.

People with windvane were able to divert when they had rudder failures, where as those without often had to abandon.

If there was seepage around the keel-bolts I'd have been off that boat like a shot.

The organisers of the ARC are top-notch, and the inspections are good as I recall - but obviously won't go as far as a survey. They do have riggers out there to help with rig-checks (at a fee, I suspect) before the voyage.

 

[dunedin]

……………..I haven’t been part of ARC ……………

Isn’t that exactly what I said ….. “The people who don’t like the ARC seem mainly to come from people who have not done the event. “

You don’t want to do the ARC, and that is fine. But perhaps don’t knock it based on second hand comment (possibly from other non participants, ie hearsay) when lack of personal experience.
Few events have got more people doing blue water sailing, many of whom later go on extensive voyages sailing independently.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Isn’t that exactly what I said ….. “The people who don’t like the ARC seem mainly to come from people who have not done the event. “

You don’t want to do the ARC, and that is fine. But perhaps don’t knock it based on second hand comment (possibly from other non participants, ie hearsay) when lack of personal experience.
Few events have got more people doing blue water sailing, many of whom later go on extensive voyages sailing independently.

Perhaps you didn’t read what I wrote? Firstly, people who pay lots of money for something often then justify their expenditure and find it difficult to admit fault. Even if this weren’t true and all the happy punters are accurate in their praise, I’ve read the ARC website and spoken to people who’ve taken part and I simply cannot justify the several £k expenditure.

For the money you get guaranteed Marina berths in Las Palmas, inspections and briefings and parties and a guaranteed berth in St Lucia (assuming you want to end up there!) The sailing in company for safety claim is slightly tenuous to say the least. What am I missing?

I appreciate that there’s a camaraderie of being part of a group all doing the same thing but we’re already enjoying that as part of the many boats crossing or about to cross. (We’ll be flying back out to our boat in a few days and leaving Las Palmas for Barbados early January. )

Good luck to all who spend their money on joining the ARC. I hope they all have a splendid time and enjoy their experience. Forgive me if I find it over priced and over hyped.

 

[Halo]

I did the Arc on a paid berth basis with a commercial outfit and the whole thing was excellent.
I did the Caribbean 600 on the same basis and the boat was disgusting. On arrival in was filthy and had no pulpit no guard rails worn lines etc etc. My friends and I spent 3 long days before the race making her something like usable. Once you get there you are committed.
Don’t let this stop you though. Both have given unforgettable memories and loads of tales to tell

 

[sailingmartin]

Good luck to all who spend their money on joining the ARC. I hope they all have a splendid time and enjoy their experience. Forgive me if I find it over priced and over hyped.

I have taken part in the ARC Europe (2013 on a Vancouver 36), ARC (2015) and ARC USA (2016) on a Southerly 42 and I’m afraid I don’t agree that it’s over priced and over hyped. I hope to do the ARC+ next year if possible on my new to me Rival 36. As others have said, the organisation is first class, the many seminars are very informative and the parties are great. I’m not sure the ARC makes any safety claim but for those doing a Transatlantic crossing for the first time, the event is definitely a bit of a confidence boost. However, there are other benefits - on our crossing the skipper who nearly lost his thumb in a winch accident was very grateful to the plastic surgeon on our boat who was sent pictures of his injury and gave practical and expert advice on how to treat the thumb and prevent infection. I guess he may have thought that was worth the entry fee alone!
No one is forcing you to join the ARC but maybe if you did you might have a different opinion. Enjoy the crossing - a fantastic experience however you do it.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

.... I’m not sure the ARC makes any safety claim ...

World Cruising Club

Statistically you are very safe taking part in a rally!

If it was me, I would spend the ARC fee on my Rival and then sail across the ocean. They are old boats.

 

[sailingmartin]

The ARC 2023 fee for a 42 ft boat and two crew is £1,620 (note not “several thousand“). Happy to admit having spent several times this amount to get my boat ready to pass the ARC safety check! I still contend the fee is worth the money, but there again, it’s my money in this case….