Reefed sail proportions

[Dellquay13]

Without being sarcastic(!) I'm sure the best people to ask are sailmakers. Better than best guessers on here.

With all due respect to those that are trying to be helpful.

Whilst I’m probably being a little bit facetious or something, could I propose that suggesting the OP might be better off talking to a proper expert instead of keeping everyone busy on a forum isn’t very entertaining to everyone else.
I don’t want to offend CapnSensible in any way, and talking to an expert is a very good idea, but asking things on here is about starting a discussion and weighing up a range of opinions, and most importantly feeding the addiction of many overly boat-obsessed people.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Robih,
The answer to that is that the force in the sail isn’t linear with wind speed, far from it. Which is why 20kn is a good breeze, probably with no reefs and 40kn is sufficient to make the 3rd reef seem not enough.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, what I thought was a simple question isn’t of course. The above debate has made me think more about it. As the mainsail is progressively furled the heeling moment is reduced not just by wind on sail area but by sail height above the centre of buoyancy. That led me to think that the proportionate sail area reduction between 2nd and 3rd “reef” points would need to be much less (measured at E) than from full sail to first reef. Bizarrely however the recommended E reductions from the sailmaker doesn’t bear this out. First reef is from luff 650mm to reef point 1 whereas it’s a 800mm reduction of E from 2nd reef to 3rd. So, it’s a black art and I’m probably out of my depth and talking from the derrière.

You are right. The debate is not helped by people wading in with views based on "traditional" sails which are simply not relevant to getting the best out of furling sails. I know it might seem a comfort for some to try and replicate the aids and strategies they used on previous boats but it really is best to forget most of that. The concept of first, second and third reef is as irrelevant as genoa, working jib, no2, etc is to managing a furling headsail. To make things more complicated the latest fractional rigs behave very differently from masthead rigs and even older fractional rigs.

My 2001 J&J Bavaria 37 had the then fashionable just fractional rig but with the 130% genoa significantly larger than the main. First sail reduction was always the jib - in fact many people replaced the genoa with a high cut 110% jib as they found the boat went better in all conditions except maybe off the wind in very light airs. It meant you could hold full sail up to f4 whereas the big genoa often needed reducing well before that. The main did not need reducing until wind was in the high teens. My second Bavaria was a Farr designed 33 with a fractional rig and sail area split almost 50/50 with 106% jib. The jib did not need reducing until 20 knots, but the main was used almost as a trim tab - a couple of rolls around 12 knots, rather like a flattening reef with a cunningham in old speak. It was really easy to judge the balance, particularly with the new Vectran sail. Pity I did not keep the boat long enough to really get to know how to get the best out of the new sail. I spent a lot of time with the person who designed the sail considering the best approach. Fortunately he had sailed on the boat when we were developing the furling asymmetric so had a good idea how the boat behaved. Despite what was suggested earlier, I had no limit to the budget and I guess no coincidence that all 3 I got quotes from recommended basically the same sail.

Your Nauticat will behave very differently from my Bavarias. It was designed for furling mainsails and has plenty of sail area, so all that talk earlier about loss of area is irrelevant. It only becomes relevant when a furling mainsail is fitted to the same rig on a boat designed for a slab reefed main - like my Bavarias or many older boats when in mast was a minority option. Such boats may well benefit from increased area of battened sails - and I would have done the same with my 37 because the mast section would take the extra volume. The big performance killer of flat cut furling sails is the hollow leech which is often unstable and the bagginess that comes from cheap cloth. The Vectran with a Spectra reinforced leech largely removed those limitations and the main set as well as any conventional battened sail, although to be fair it did need careful trimming which was difficult with my boat which did not have a traveller.

It is not a "black" art, but certainly as much art as science. The use of fixed discrete sail areas either by slab reefs or individual foresails is a mechanism for distilling experience of what is appropriate in different conditions into an easily managed mechanism for adjusting sail areas. You can see with top racing boats how inadequate this is with huge wardrobes of sails of different shapes and sizes for every situation. The 3 reefs and 3 headsail is a way of simplifying this, and a furling headsail or maybe 2 is a way of further simplification. When those constraints are removed with all furling rigs why try and force choices back into the sub optimal? Of course not as simple as that as you can see from the proliferation of different headsails. With my new project I am back to slab reefing and wrestling with all the bits of string and hardware to make it work efficiently from the cockpit. Hardware alone is well into 4 figures, plus another £900 for a Tides Marine track, £600 for stackpack and lazyjacks, £1500 for a fairly basic sail (compared with £2k for the sail for the Bavaria). On top of that I would still be stuck with a big unmanageable 130% genoa so another couple of K for a second furler for a working jib inside the genoa. Sometimes I wonder why I sold my Bavaria, but it was a conscious decision for a new challenge to fill out my twilight years. Owning and sailing a new boat that was as close to my idea of perfection was a great experience, but a bit boring after 6 years!

 

[[2574]]

You are right. The debate is not helped by people wading in with views based on "traditional" sails which are simply not relevant to getting the best out of furling sails. I know it might seem a comfort for some to try and replicate the aids and strategies they used on previous boats but it really is best to forget most of that. The concept of first, second and third reef is as irrelevant as genoa, working jib, no2, etc is to managing a furling headsail. To make things more complicated the latest fractional rigs behave very differently from masthead rigs and even older fractional rigs.

My 2001 J&J Bavaria 37 had the then fashionable just fractional rig but with the 130% genoa significantly larger than the main. First sail reduction was always the jib - in fact many people replaced the genoa with a high cut 110% jib as they found the boat went better in all conditions except maybe off the wind in very light airs. It meant you could hold full sail up to f4 whereas the big genoa often needed reducing well before that. The main did not need reducing until wind was in the high teens. My second Bavaria was a Farr designed 33 with a fractional rig and sail area split almost 50/50 with 106% jib. The jib did not need reducing until 20 knots, but the main was used almost as a trim tab - a couple of rolls around 12 knots, rather like a flattening reef with a cunningham in old speak. It was really easy to judge the balance, particularly with the new Vectran sail. Pity I did not keep the boat long enough to really get to know how to get the best out of the new sail. I spent a lot of time with the person who designed the sail considering the best approach. Fortunately he had sailed on the boat when we were developing the furling asymmetric so had a good idea how the boat behaved. Despite what was suggested earlier, I had no limit to the budget and I guess no coincidence that all 3 I got quotes from recommended basically the same sail.

Your Nauticat will behave very differently from my Bavarias. It was designed for furling mainsails and has plenty of sail area, so all that talk earlier about loss of area is irrelevant. It only becomes relevant when a furling mainsail is fitted to the same rig on a boat designed for a slab reefed main - like my Bavarias or many older boats when in mast was a minority option. Such boats may well benefit from increased area of battened sails - and I would have done the same with my 37 because the mast section would take the extra volume. The big performance killer of flat cut furling sails is the hollow leech which is often unstable and the bagginess that comes from cheap cloth. The Vectran with a Spectra reinforced leech largely removed those limitations and the main set as well as any conventional battened sail, although to be fair it did need careful trimming which was difficult with my boat which did not have a traveller.

It is not a "black" art, but certainly as much art as science. The use of fixed discrete sail areas either by slab reefs or individual foresails is a mechanism for distilling experience of what is appropriate in different conditions into an easily managed mechanism for adjusting sail areas. You can see with top racing boats how inadequate this is with huge wardrobes of sails of different shapes and sizes for every situation. The 3 reefs and 3 headsail is a way of simplifying this, and a furling headsail or maybe 2 is a way of further simplification. When those constraints are removed with all furling rigs why try and force choices back into the sub optimal? Of course not as simple as that as you can see from the proliferation of different headsails. With my new project I am back to slab reefing and wrestling with all the bits of string and hardware to make it work efficiently from the cockpit. Hardware alone is well into 4 figures, plus another £900 for a Tides Marine track, £600 for stackpack and lazyjacks, £1500 for a fairly basic sail (compared with £2k for the sail for the Bavaria). On top of that I would still be stuck with a big unmanageable 130% genoa so another couple of K for a second furler for a working jib inside the genoa. Sometimes I wonder why I sold my Bavaria, but it was a conscious decision for a new challenge to fill out my twilight years. Owning and sailing a new boat that was as close to my idea of perfection was a great experience, but a bit boring after 6 years!

All very interesting. Some points:

1. I used to sail a Nauticat 39, now a Malö 43. Quite a different yacht to sail. Much stiffer, less lively, more powerful. Not as much fun short tacking, we tend to motor in narrowish channels upwind. Would be fun to tack with crew of four but not just us two. Hard work despite electric winches. Used to start reefing the Nauticat at 14ktx, nearer 20kits with the Malö.

2. Completely agree regarding 130% genoa, we have one but it’s a monster. Just bought another furlex for an inner forestay on which we’ll put a working jib type sail, used for above 18kts.

3. I think my plan to affix reefing marks has been misunderstood. When unfurling/furling I simply want a quick reference point, easily visible from the outhaul/furling winch. Once I’ve deployed the sail I can stand back and look at it and refine as desired. Especially important at night.

 

[Daydream believer]

I know that sea state has a bearing on the amount of reef but assuming inmast furling.
I just wonder why one cannot put a few black bands on the boom at ,convenient c/c & perhaps paint numbers alongside them. Start with some painter's tape & felt tip pens, Then put black duct tape at the optimum positions wrapped around the boom.
Then as trial & error, one can see which band the clew car needs to be for which wind strength.
One could get flash & paint the wind strength next to the band as a quick reminder. This would be useful for the crew as the skipper could leave instructions when retiring below.

 

[[2574]]

I know that sea state has a bearing on the amount of reef but assuming mast furling.
I just wonder why one cannot put a few black bands on the boom at ,convenient c/c & perhaps paint numbers alongside them. Start with some painter's tape & felt tip pens, Then put black duct tape at the optimum positions wrapped around the boom.
Then as trial & error, one can see which band the clew car needs to be for which wind strength.
One could get flash & paint the wind strength next to the band as a quick reminder. This would be useful for the crew as the skipper could leave instructions when retiring below.

Equally good idea, that would work well too.

 

[Tranona]

Good as a rough and ready guide. The position of the car is useful when rolling in the sail (or letting it out). However because the outhaul is the means of controlling draft the position of the car varies for any given sail area.

I think if I were going to mark either the sail or the boom I would do it to reflect actual experience of how much sail is best for specific conditions rather than being based on fixed reefs on slab reefed sails - which as been shown to vary anyway. There are derived from empirical data as a "best fit" and with infinitely variable sail area you can derive your own best fits.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

How bloody much do you move the car! Ours might be as much as 75mm from heavy wind beating to light wind broad reach. Is it more than that for an in mast sail?

 

[Tranona]

How bloody much do you move the car! Ours might be as much as 75mm from heavy wind beating to light wind broad reach. Is it more than that for an in mast sail?

Yes.

To understand you really need to own an in mast boat. 20 years with two different boats in my case. As I suggested it is pointless comparing with boats with different rigs, least of all a stodgy old Bavaria with a sharp high performance multihull. I know people do make such comparisons, partly because they have often moved from a lifetime of slab reefed boats to in mast and partly (from those with no experience) because they think in mast is automatically inferior.

Despite that thousands of buyers, many of them very experienced sailors choose in mast because it suits the boat and type of sailing they do. Designers know how to design the boat and rig to make it work effectively. Look at the bigger cruising boats from the Swedish builders and others such as Oyster and you will find furling mainsails, mostly in mast, almost universal. No surprise that the most common system comes from a Swedish company.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I still think it’s all about convenience for new sailors and the terminally idle, foisted on the sailing community by the AWB manufacturers who have, for some reason, probably profit, decided thats what we all want, and have done a great job convincing people. Leaving people like you, who want at least a reasonable sailing performance, to test the ingenuity and technology of sailmakers to make that happen. Credit to you for achieving it, most in mast mains are an abomination.

 

[Tranona]

I still think it’s all about convenience for new sailors and the terminally idle, foisted on the sailing community by the AWB manufacturers who have, for some reason, probably profit, decided thats what we all want, and have done a great job convincing people. Leaving people like you, who want at least a reasonable sailing performance, to test the ingenuity and technology of sailmakers to make that happen. Credit to you for achieving it, most in mast mains are an abomination.

Absolute nonsense. Do you seriously think that people who spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on a boat, often like me after decades of sailing are incapable of making their own decisions? almost all boats are available with a choice, and in mast has been around for over 30 years so doubt anything has been foisted on anybody.

My little foray into understanding how to get the best out of the rig and choosing is sails accordingly is nothing compared with the range of things sailmakers do to make "conventional" sails work properly.

You can think what you like, but thoughts are best when they are connected to reality - and I resent being called "terminally idle".

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Ive only used in-mast for one week on a charter. It was a SO 32i. To be honest it was fine. Rather nice actually and that boat nipped along nicely.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, there is more to a boat than whether it has in mast or not. My 37 was a dog - not surprising as I had specified the shallow keel to go through the French canals, its sails were awful and it had a lot of windage from its bimini. Despite that it was always in demand as a charter boat and nobody ever complained about its sailing ability, although that was in the Ionian. My 33 was in a different league. even though again it had a shallow keel, but deeper and more efficient. Close winded, tacked like a dinghy, could fly an asymmetric on a furler. All single handed from the cockpit. Not bad for a terminally idle 75 year old! Lots of admirers in the club commenting on how good she looked under sail.

As it happens the 32i was second on my list when I bought, but the cockpit was not so good for single handing and at the final count the deal was better with the Bavaria, partly because I was trading in the old one.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Absolute nonsense. Do you seriously think that people who spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on a boat, often like me after decades of sailing are incapable of making their own decisions? almost all boats are available with a choice, and in mast has been around for over 30 years so doubt anything has been foisted on anybody.

My little foray into understanding how to get the best out of the rig and choosing is sails accordingly is nothing compared with the range of things sailmakers do to make "conventional" sails work properly.

You can think what you like, but thoughts are best when they are connected to reality - and I resent being called "terminally idle".

Not specifically you, but yes, people who spend hundreds of thousands often just accept the spec of a boat with barely a secind thought. Every change you make costs more money, there’s a lot of pressure just to take what they offer. You might be more resistant yourself, though the evidence says not.

 

[newtothis]

Absolute nonsense. Do you seriously think that people who spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on a boat, often like me after decades of sailing are incapable of making their own decisions? almost all boats are available with a choice, and in mast has been around for over 30 years so doubt anything has been foisted on anybody.

My little foray into understanding how to get the best out of the rig and choosing is sails accordingly is nothing compared with the range of things sailmakers do to make "conventional" sails work properly.

You can think what you like, but thoughts are best when they are connected to reality - and I resent being called "terminally idle".

I pride myself in my idleness... it leads to efficiency. My ideal cruising sail plan would be a junk rig, One sail, up-down, in-out, and little else to worry about.

 

[Sandy]

However, completely irrelevant to the OPs question as he has a furling mainsail and therefore the size in use is infinitely variable from maximum to nothing.

I see, I did not read that in the first post and had not read the rest of the thread in depth. The OP must have posted that vital bit of information later on in the thread.

 

[Tranona]

Not specifically you, but yes, people who spend hundreds of thousands often just accept the spec of a boat with barely a secind thought. Every change you make costs more money, there’s a lot of pressure just to take what they offer. You might be more resistant yourself, though the evidence says not.

You have clearly never been involved in the trade of selling new boats. What "evidence" do you have? Are you just relying on the fact that there are thousands of boats in use with in mast and therefore the original buyers did not know they were being sold something they did not want?

Do you really believe that such people do not know what they are buying and the choices they make. Seems to me you live in your own world, certainly not the one that real buyers inhabit.

 

[Tranona]

I see, I did not read that in the first post and had not read the rest of the thread in depth. The OP must have posted that vital bit of information later on in the thread.

In the very first exchanges before the thread started to drift post#7