Reefed sail proportions

Chiara’s slave

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It’s not really sailing performance at the margins though, is it. It's as much as a 20% loss of efficiencycompared to a conventional short batten main, let alone a racier rig. You’re right, there are a large number of boat buyers who either don’t know, or don’t care about the part of sailing they are missing out on.
 

Daydream believer

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That will be enormously expensive and unlikely ever to get near the mass market. HR make maybe 20 of those boats a year (at a base price of £350k last time I looked!) of which perhaps 2 or 3 might choose that as an option.
The reason I pointed out the 34 was that in boat terms it is now considered ( by many) the starter boat length. Possibly HR can use that design of sail on all the other models , so saying that there will only be 20 models of that boat may well be true. However, it is a little misleading in the grand scheme of things. Plus other constructors than HR may well use it. One should also remember that at that end of the market, many buyers are not always looking at price,( if they were they would not be looking at that type of boat) but quality. Furthermore, what one might consider "enormously expensive", another might shrug & consider it part of the running expense of a quality yacht & something that they are prepared to accept.

Your comment at the bottom of your post made me smile. You mentioned just 14. (How boring :cry: ) I have 26 different lines leading to my cockpit. Not all in use at once , of course, but the options are there when needed :D
 
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SaltyC

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I agree with many of the above comments, I have in mast reefing because I bought 'pre loved ' and 90% of the model had in mast.
Although not a racer I like a well set sail and very rarely motor, I bought knowing I would probably need a new fully battened main - I did! The shape of the unbattened and the poor sailing performance were unacceptable, albeit the sail was in good condition.
The new Vectran main with full length battens was a revelation, first time set the shape was great and I relaxed as the boat realised its potential.
Yes putting the full length battens in is difficult and requires a very still day. Reefing is far easier done on Stbd tack but possible on port but it's grit your teeth and ignore the forces required.
Summary, each to their own, personally I would prefer slab reefing with lines led to cockpit as previous boat, the current main is a good compromise allowing the ease of in mast furling as we get older yet retaining performance. Cost of fully battened is eye watering - from memory, the carbon fibre battens alone were 4 figures! However, a slab reefing fully battened sail is more than non fully battened, the price you pay for performance and longevity (less leech flapping).
 

Chiara’s slave

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The new, bigger versions of our boat have in boom systems. Happy enough with our single line system and stack pack, but for any bigger sail, or as we get older, we may have to think again
 

Tranona

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It’s not really sailing performance at the margins though, is it. It's as much as a 20% loss of efficiencycompared to a conventional short batten main, let alone a racier rig. You’re right, there are a large number of boat buyers who either don’t know, or don’t care about the part of sailing they are missing out on.
That so called loss in efficiency does not translate into a similar reduction in passage times - it is only a "guess" at how much loss there is from the mainsail based on the smaller area compared with a roached battened sail. in reality firstly the loss in area even on a boat like mine which had the same rig dimensions for both types is less than that. The loss is not the same across all points of sail, but mainly when sailing to wind, which is a very small part of cruising. Good passage times when cruising are more to do with how well you use all the capabilities of the boat, not just some of them.

HR has been mentioned in this context. Almost all their boats over 36' inn the last 30 years have been designed to have in mast with slab reefing as an option. The sail area is therefore set for that type of sail and would be equal to a slab reefed sail of a similar boat. The loss in area only applies as suggested above when a furling main is used on a boat designed for slab reefing.

It is disingenuous to suggest that buyers don't know what they are buying, nor that they don't care, Anybody spending the £00s of K to buy a new boat will weigh up the options and choose the one that suits them. I chose in mast on my first Bavaria because that is what the charter market wanted. For the second boat because that is part of what enabled me to sail a relatively big boat on my own during my 8th decade - same reason I specified a bow thruster. It meant that living as I do 20 minutes from the boat, within less than an hour I could be out sailing with all sails up happily tacking down Poole harbour in a 33' 5.5 tonne boat. Apart from anchoring I never had the need to leave the cockpit.

I can admire boats that sail close to the wind and make better progress than me (loads of Elans of similar size to my Bavaria in the club to show me) but that is what they are designed for and do not suit my kind of usage.
 

Daydream believer

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. The loss in area only applies as suggested above when a furling main is used on a boat designed for slab reefing.
I would dispute that comment about the comparison of sail area .
The comparison used was the farhead in mast sail to a normal in mast one. A fat head is an in mast sail NOT a slab reef sail.
Perhaps you might try to grasp the concept these newer designs. You have been, unfairly, a bit quick to acuse me of being asleep for 30 years.
But to support my assertions further. Take a look at Jeckells sails website where they compare their vertical ( short) battens( plus 15%) with zero battens. There is no comment about slab reefing and it specifically talks about in mast reefing.
Whilst credible sails in some classes one would not consider Jeckells a high end racing sailmaker, more a sail designed for the cruising fraternity.

As for your comment about passage time. That is difficult to quantify. Sailors who tend to care abour their sail selection probably care about how they sail. A well sailed & rigged boat will p..s all over a badly rigged boat of the same design. Passage times will come down significantly.
What is significant though? An hour in 60 miles? (That is circa .55kts) - I would say that is significant, but easily obtainable with decent sails. Slow sail deniers will say it does not matter. I say it does. But to each his own & it depend what one wants from their sailing. . But like you I have an opinion. We can always swop those, amicably one hopes
 
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Supertramp

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The discussion was about reefing, and in particular about how much reduction a reef constituted with slab and in mast being compared. The 15 or 20% gain in sail area becomes less relevant as you reef (accepting shape and set may differ).

Also true that performance sails used well will give a noticeable advantage to pointing and passage time. So will a performance boat versus a laden cruiser.

Much of the fun for me is taking a boat, learning to understand it and then to extract satisfying performance from it. The satisfaction is that feeling of getting it right in a given set of circumstances whether using in mast furling, old sails or new, reefed or not. Speed is part of it but so is the balance and feel of the boat.

I usually find careful use of tides on passage makes up more time than my old sails and slow boat might lose me!
 

Tranona

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I would dispute that comment about the comparison of sail area .
The comparison used was the farhead in mast sail to a normal in mast one. A fat head is an in mast sail NOT a slab reef sail.
Perhaps you might try to grasp the concept these newer designs. You have been, unfairly, a bit quick to acuse me of being asleep for 30 years.
But to support my assertions further. Take a look at Jeckells sails website where they compare their vertical ( short) battens( plus 15%) with zero battens. There is no comment about slab reefing and it specifically talks about in mast reefing.
Whilst credible sails in some classes one would not consider Jeckells a high end racing sailmaker, more a sail designed for the cruising fraternity.

As for your comment about passage time. That is difficult to quantify. Sailors who tend to care abour their sail selection probably care about how they sail. A well sailed & rigged boat will p..s all over a badly rigged boat of the same design. Passage times will come down significantly.
What is significant though? An hour in 60 miles? (That is circa .55kts) - I would say that is significant, but easily obtainable with decent sails. Slow sail deniers will say it does not matter. I say it does. But to each his own & it depend what one wants from their sailing. . But like you I have an opinion. We can always swop those, amicably one hopes
We are at cross purposes. I was not talking about the increased area from battened sails, but the loss of area when specifying a furling sail on a boat that normally has a slab reefing sail. On my Bavaria that was just less than 10% of the main. There are two ways of getting that back. The first is to have either a taller mast or longer boom and the second is to have a battened furling sail. As I explained, HR on their bigger boats design them for furling sails and specify the mainsail area that is appropriate for the rig so there is no point in trying to determine a "loss".

With cheap boats like mine the default is a slab main so inevitably there is a loss if you substitute a furling main. All made very clear in the data provided to buyers who are perfectly capable of deciding if they can live with the loss. On some boats you can recover this lost area by having a battened sail, but I am not aware of any mass production builder who offers this option. If sailing performance was high on the list then a new boat buyer would not choose an in mast. With my Bavaria it was not practical to fit a battened sail anyway as there is not enough room in the mast to furl it.

Battened sails are not a panacea. They don't work on a lot of boats and they are hugely expensive. From what sailmakers told me the market for battened sails is mostly from people who have bought a used boat with a furling main where it was not their preference and are prepared to spend the money to improve the performance of the boat. See post#43.

As for the Elvestrom sail. That is just the latest in a long line of attempts to improve performance of furling mainsails. doubt it will ever make any real progress in the aftermarket because of the cost. I can see some new boat buyers specifying it as ticking that box on the order form as an option means they only pay the incremental cost rather than the full cost. HR have moved their position in the market by offering more performance orientated boats so not surprising that they might offer the latest in performance sails.
 

Daydream believer

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As for the Elvestrom sail. That is just the latest in a long line of attempts to improve performance of furling mainsails. doubt it will ever make any real progress in the aftermarket because of the cost.
You have made comments about the cost. Possibly because cost concerns you. Perhaps you might consider that there are an awful lot of people out there for whom cost is not a restriction in the way it might be to yourself. I can site instances of people buying sails at regular intervals. Not necessarily for racing either
 

Tranona

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You have made comments about the cost. Possibly because cost concerns you. Perhaps you might consider that there are an awful lot of people out there for whom cost is not a restriction in the way it might be to yourself. I can site instances of people buying sails at regular intervals. Not necessarily for racing either
Of course cost is important for most people - BUT it is value for money rather than just the actual amount. When buying functional items like sails, discerning consumers weigh up the options and choose the product that thy perceive gives the best value. The value is in what it does rather than what it is.

I know you buy lots of sails - good for you - but don't pretend that is "normal" for a typical cruising yachtsperson.

As it happens I could afford to buy a battened furling sail (if I still needed one) 10 times over without batting an eyelid. But I would not because I don't see the value in it (apart from the practicalities). Maybe that approach explains why I can make that statement
 

Chiara’s slave

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Do in mast mains not suffer from the same problems as roller reefing jibs? A few rolls of our jib does fairly horrid things to the shape. We just grin and bear it, but it does damage our pointing in stronger winds. Fortunately the boat is quite mainsail driven, the main is over twice the area of the jib. Presumably on board Daydream Believer, thereks a couple of blokes on the foredeck to put a smaller jib on, we don't have the luxury of crew, space for sails, or a second luff groove.
 

Daydream believer

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Presumably on board Daydream Believer, thereks a couple of blokes on the foredeck to put a smaller jib on, we don't have the luxury of crew, space for sails, or a second luff groove.
No one on my foredeck. I sail single handed 95% of the time
I have to - When asked why? I have to tell the truth
Nobody likes me :cry:
Then they often start laughing & I have to point out how hurtful that is & sometimes they become confused;):D
 
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Chiara’s slave

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No one on my foredeck. I sail singel handed 95% of the time
I have to - When asked why? I have to tell the truth
Nobody likes me :cry:
Then they often start laughing & I have to point out how hurtful that is & sometimes they become confused;):D
I can make no great claims of popularity. I sail only with my wife generally, though a spectacular show of speed right outside the clubhouse recently has increased interest in the boat. Which is whywe roller reef our jib. Even though it spoils the shape, it’s still quicker than being over pressed.
 

Dellquay13

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Do in mast mains not suffer from the same problems as roller reefing jibs? A few rolls of our jib does fairly horrid things to the shape. We just grin and bear it, but it does damage our pointing in stronger winds. Fortunately the boat is quite mainsail driven, the main is over twice the area of the jib. Presumably on board Daydream Believer, thereks a couple of blokes on the foredeck to put a smaller jib on, we don't have the luxury of crew, space for sails, or a second luff groove.
I only have a slab reef main so not talking from experience of in mast furling mains, but I thought most of the poor shape of a partly furled genny was down to the unequal volume of wrap caused by the UV strip, and that the use of a foam tape luff helped to balance the wrap volume on the hurler.
As in mast mains don’t need a UV strip, would they not furl more evenly? (Given that a sail isn’t usually cut perfectly flat there will always be a bit of an odd furl.)
 

Tranona

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Do in mast mains not suffer from the same problems as roller reefing jibs? A few rolls of our jib does fairly horrid things to the shape. We just grin and bear it, but it does damage our pointing in stronger winds. Fortunately the boat is quite mainsail driven, the main is over twice the area of the jib. Presumably on board Daydream Believer, thereks a couple of blokes on the foredeck to put a smaller jib on, we don't have the luxury of crew, space for sails, or a second luff groove.
No because of the cut of the sail and no change in leading edge that you get with a jib. The main control of shape is the outhaul which you can use to adjust the draft of the sail.
 

Tranona

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No. The sail is cut flat. However with "cheap" cloth they quickly go baggy and lose shape plus can be difficult to furl. Possible to have it recut to flatten it again. but does not last long. After 4 seasons my sail having been recut once was past it. Visibly stretched as the wind got up and noticeable increase in leeway. Hence the choice of Vectran for its replacement.

Pointless trying to make comparisons with slab reefing sails. They are a different concept and you need to learn and understand how to get the best out of them.
 

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Without being sarcastic(!) I'm sure the best people to ask are sailmakers. Better than best guessers on here.

With all due respect to those that are trying to be helpful.
And with a sailmaker you can adjust the sail area of the third reef, always good to have somebody who is happy to talk about usage and where you are planning to sail. My third reef would be seen a three and a half reefs, but allows me a scrap of main up.
 

Tranona

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And with a sailmaker you can adjust the sail area of the third reef, always good to have somebody who is happy to talk about usage and where you are planning to sail. My third reef would be seen a three and a half reefs, but allows me a scrap of main up.
That does indeed show the advantage of having a dialogue with the sailmaker. However, completely irrelevant to the OPs question as he has a furling mainsail and therefore the size in use is infinitely variable from maximum to nothing.

He was only asking guidance for what would be considered reasonable intermediate reductions so that he could mark the foot of his sail in much the same way as some people mark the foot of furling headsails.

As it happens I had this discussion with the sailmaker when my furling main was made and agreed on balance there was little added value in doing this. That is one of the benefits of furling sails - you are not limited to predetermined sail areas and with experience get a good feel for what is appropriate in the conditions.
 

Robih

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That does indeed show the advantage of having a dialogue with the sailmaker. However, completely irrelevant to the OPs question as he has a furling mainsail and therefore the size in use is infinitely variable from maximum to nothing.

He was only asking guidance for what would be considered reasonable intermediate reductions so that he could mark the foot of his sail in much the same way as some people mark the foot of furling headsails.

As it happens I had this discussion with the sailmaker when my furling main was made and agreed on balance there was little added value in doing this. That is one of the benefits of furling sails - you are not limited to predetermined sail areas and with experience get a good feel for what is appropriate in the conditions.
Yes, what I thought was a simple question isn’t of course. The above debate has made me think more about it. As the mainsail is progressively furled the heeling moment is reduced not just by wind on sail area but by sail height above the centre of buoyancy. That led me to think that the proportionate sail area reduction between 2nd and 3rd “reef” points would need to be much less (measured at E) than from full sail to first reef. Bizarrely however the recommended E reductions from the sailmaker doesn’t bear this out. First reef is from luff 650mm to reef point 1 whereas it’s a 800mm reduction of E from 2nd reef to 3rd. So, it’s a black art and I’m probably out of my depth and talking from the derrière.
 
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