Red boards!!!!

[rosssavage]

Bloody everywhere now... Got a feeling my two planned boat trips in May are in jeopardy now.

Grrrrrrrrrr!!!!

Still, will give Steve a chance to fit my new fake teak cockpit

 

[Teddy]

Boating this year could well be cancelled unless we have a prolonged drought. Went to take boat out for first trip from Penton Hook, boards were on yellow. By the time the boat was uncovered, cleaned and ready, boards now red!!!

I realise there is nothing that can be changed, but it will make future trips a nightmare if after a couple of showers you could be stranded anywhere.

Does anybody want a clean boat, fuelled and ready to go?

 

[ianc1200]

This really ought to be in the Charter, no serious attempt at dredging, X number of days on red boards May-September = £X compensation. Otherwise it's taking money (ie licence fee) under false pretences.

 

[boatone]

Frustrating though the situation is - and I am as fed up as anybody - red boards and flow rates have little to do with dredging and everything to do with how much water is coming down the river - not how much water the river can hold.
The fact is that the ground is still completely saturated and, until there has been a prolonged dry spell to alleviate the situation, any significant rainfall will result in a rapid increase in flow rates as has been the case in the last few days. The flow rate at Maidenhead has increased from 65 cumecs on Friday morning to 133 cumecs this morning - a rate which may well indicate that the dreaded Jubilee River could again be in the equation.

As for the Customer Charter, I know you won't want to hear this but as John McEnroe would say "You cannot be serious !!!" The Customer Charter is simply an aspirational document giving us some idea of what the EA will try to do to keep the river available for boating. There is no contractual entitlement and the registration fee simply permits you to keep your boat on the waterway with no guarantee of usage.
The only sanction we users can apply is to remove our boats from the waterway.
User Groups were so unhappy with the assisted lock passage hours of duty proposed for this coming season that we unanimously rejected the proposed offer with the result that when the Charter is issued - we are still waiting - the section relating to lock keeping hours will be outside the charter itself as an annex - go figure.

 

[ianc1200]

Tony, I know you & several others believe "red boards and flow rates have little to do with dredging" but lets agree to disagree on that one.

However, for the sake of argument if you were to accept the lack of dredging causes the river to go into a state of red boards quicker than if it had been dredged, the EA would be taking our money & not doing anything about the cause of the river being unusable. Similar issues to making compensation claims for trains running late or pot holes causing damage to cars.

 

[boatone]

Tony, I know you & several others believe "red boards and flow rates have little to do with dredging" but lets agree to disagree on that one.

As you say, Ian, we must agree to disagree. Red and Yellow Boards are a consequence of HOW MUCH water is coming down the river - flow rate - rather than how much water the river can hold. Even the most ambitious dredging programme would be of only marginal benefit. At the present time the ground is simply incapable of absorbing any more rainfall which therefore drains quickly into the river. Just a couple of inches in recent days have been enough to tip the balance.

The fact is that the EA are taking our money with no contract or guarantees to define what we are entitled to receive in return. A few million motorists kicking up stink about roads may just carry a little more political weight than a few hundred boaters complaining about the river !

No doubt you will now point out that there are thousands of boaters. True, but still pretty small beer compared to the number of motorists and the importance of roads to the economy, and, sadly, most boaters seem pretty apathetic when it comes to actually supporting those of us that are actively trying to do something about it.

 

[No Regrets]

I can still use Fifty Shades though!

The flow is of little consequence, other than a few bits of flotsam to dodge, I have no issues with Air draft either, and if she can handle estuaries and coastal work, there's little the river can do to change things.

Once in the vicinity of a lock, there is virtually no flow as the weir takes all the flow away.

The biggest pain is listening to the lockies waving red cards...LOL

An issue of course is mooring in a strong stream. This is something that should be undertaken with care, and lots of lines just in case. Also, as mentioned earlier, many moorings are soggy and no fun.

We spent a great weekend at Bray clubhouse as a result. Friday was club night, and Saturday was a Chinese feast, bar takings were good...

 

[boatone]

Once in the vicinity of a lock, there is virtually no flow as the weir takes all the flow away.

Don't be quite so dismissive of the dangers, John. At many locks the weir stream can result in quite vicious currents flowing across the approach. The pull of the weir above Old Windsor as you approach the lock cut can be a salutary lesson to any unprepared boater as can the cross flow from the Shepperton weir if exiting or entering the River Wey - I'm sure there are others that hold similar danger.

 

[apollo]

Red and Yellow Boards are a consequence of HOW MUCH water is coming down the river - flow rate - rather than how much water the river can hold. Even the most ambitious dredging programme would be of only marginal benefit.

Tosh!
The Jubilee River is no bigger in size than the amount of silt that would have been dredged from the main river if it had been dredged.
And i think it does make some difference...

 

[alanch]

I can still use Fifty Shades though!

The flow is of little consequence, other than a few bits of flotsam to dodge, I have no issues with Air draft either, and if she can handle estuaries and coastal work, there's little the river can do to change things.


I tend to agree with NR on this. The right boat in experienced hands should not have too much difficulty with high flow rates. Granted some locks and bridges present increased risks but this is where the experience and right boat combined come into their own. I watched the flow from Walton bridge late yesterday and concluded it was no faster than a good spring ebb on the tidal. As he says, the other major issue with high flow rates is debris in the river. On the other hand, very very high flow rates, combined with high river levels can make boating a waste of time and moves it up a notch into the dangerous category.

 

[Actionmat]

I have to swing my boat in between two piles, with the bow facing the bank. I cannot use the river when the weirs are open as I won't get back on my mooring. The last time I tried it was bloody dangerous and after 3 aborted attempts I had to stay at the lock until the river had calmed down. The flow is of great consequence to me unfortunately.

 

[boatone]

Whatever your take on the arguments it is all somewhat academic as little is likely to change - at least not in the short to medium term.

 

[oldgit]

The main difference between 4-5 knots of current on the tidal bit and upriver is that you have half a mile of water to get things right before you run out of depth and hit the bank as opposed to a yard or two ?
Above the lock running the engine at full chat for the first time in years may reveal any latent over heating problems rather quickly.

 

[Aquafan]

Whether locks display yellow or red boards is not dependent on the river flow but how many inches the river is above high water

 

[teddington_lock]

Whether locks display yellow or red boards is not dependent on the river flow but how many inches the river is above high water

Ummmmm ..... i'm not sure i agree with that.

The boards are triggered by X amount of gates open on the weir , so X gates = yellow boards , Y gates = red boards.

Opening gates increases flow , the aim is to keep the headwater ( HW ) as near to a constant as possible , in theory , the headwater should only start to rise when you have no more gates to pull and there is still more water entering the river system.

Teddington is the anomaly to this in that we run our headwater at different levels , as we pull more gates , we drop the headwater lower. This allows us a 'buffer' for the incoming tide to fill , as the incoming tide meets the fluvial flow at or around Teddington.

Hope this helps.

 

[Chris_d]

Ummmmm ..... i'm not sure i agree with that.

The boards are triggered by X amount of gates open on the weir , so X gates = yellow boards , Y gates = red boards.

Opening gates increases flow , the aim is to keep the headwater ( HW ) as near to a constant as possible , in theory , the headwater should only start to rise when you have no more gates to pull and there is still more water entering the river system.

Teddington is the anomaly to this in that we run our headwater at different levels , as we pull more gates , we drop the headwater lower. This allows us a 'buffer' for the incoming tide to fill , as the incoming tide meets the fluvial flow at or around Teddington.

Hope this helps.

Exactly! I don't understand why peeps cannot understand why dredging will have no effect on the yellow/red boards problem, the weirs control the flow and the level, it doesn't matter how deep the bath is the overflow is the same size. If more water is coming in at the taps than the overflow will allow to go away we then overflow the bath. Some people think making the bath deeper will help because it adds extra capacity, that would be great if it was dry ditch or stormdrain etc... but because it is a navigation it has to be maintained at a level so no amount of extra capacity will help.

 

[Aquafan]

My apologies, the boards are of cause triggered by x weir gates open which in turn are triggered by the number of inches above h/w are they not? I don't think the flow comes into the equation?
The difference between a bath and the river is the river flows and the more capacity the river the faster it gets rid of it, I would have thought. I am in favour of dredging. Apart from anything else we boaters need a navigable river and if they don't dredge the river it will be full of shoals and shallow moorings.

 

[Chris_d]

My apologies, the boards are of cause triggered by x weir gates open which in turn are triggered by the number of inches above h/w are they not? I don't think the flow comes into the equation?
The difference between a bath and the river is the river flows and the more capacity the river the faster it gets rid of it, I would have thought. I am in favour of dredging. Apart from anything else we boaters need a navigable river and if they don't dredge the river it will be full of shoals and shallow moorings.

The bath analogy holds true because the locks and weirs form baths between them, the slope has been taken away by turning the river into a navigation. The flow comes from the taps or tributaries etc.... in the rivers case, turn off the taps and the river would stop flowing and stay at the level of the weirs. Of course we need dredging to maintain a minimum depth for boats to navigate but not to prevent flooding. This is different to somewhere like the Somerset levels where rivers and ditches are there to take water away unrestricted by weirs etc... normally they would be dry but need the capacity for the worst case.
The Thames is controlled at near its limit to be a navigation, but turn those taps to past the max and it will soon overflow.

 

[prof pat pending]

But surely if the river was deeper, you could afford to lower the water level toward the minimum during periods of heavy rain increasing the holding capacity if nothing else?
(Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way saying that this would have prevented the major flooding we've recently seen)

Also if the height of the water was lower, but the depth of the river the same (if that makes sense) wouldn't the land be able to drain better lowering the water table sooner after flooding?
The recent red boards are a result of all the rain entering the river system as the surrounding land has no capacity to hold water

 

[Chris_d]

But surely if the river was deeper, you could afford to lower the water level toward the minimum during periods of heavy rain increasing the holding capacity if nothing else?
(Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way saying that this would have prevented the major flooding we've recently seen)

Also if the height of the water was lower, but the depth of the river the same (if that makes sense) wouldn't the land be able to drain better lowering the water table sooner after flooding?
The recent red boards are a result of all the rain entering the river system as the surrounding land has no capacity to hold water

I suppose the ideal level has been arrived at after hundreds of years of trying to control it, lowering it would require a lot more dredging than we are ever likely to see in our wildest dreams. Just 6 inches from bank to bank for the entire length wouldn't even be possible I reckon.

We don't have enough data to make a judgement, but if you had say 6 inches of extra capacity it would still probably only provide a short buffer until you were back where you were, then its down to the weirs again. The only way to get more water down would be to build new wider weirs and then widen or deepen the river to match, thats what they did with the Jubilee river at Maidenhead but thats not going to happen at every lock in our lifetime.