Red - A solution that will not work

[Gludy]

It now looks as if we are going to keep red but have two charges at the pump - present commercial documents and you get it at old rate otherwise its going to be over £1 per litre.

This formulae which is not favoured by HMG was also objected to by HMG when they objected to the end of dereg and was objected to on very sensible grounds - it is not enforceable.

I think some fisherman/charter boats etc out there will be making more by selling their red to have a nice little side line than they make out of fishing etc . I think the charter boats are going to be in a fine pickle as they are commercial but also used for personal use - so that will probably come down to paying tax on a log of use .....?

Holland is going to have to learn that red is going to be there for a long time to come and learn not to fine those who have it in their tanks.

Its the same as having a legal red on the road - it would become unenforcable.

So it seems we are to enter a messy world of pretence with a governement trying to enforce the unenforcable but pretending its OK.

As long as it look as if it is complying with EU madness then its OK.

It is all going to be very interesting to watch.

 

[rubberduck]

Just keep quiet & find a friendly fisherman. I have several /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[DAKA]

I understand and respect your comments but I would like to point out that as we are British we will act and cooperate in an Honourable British way as we always do.

No wind up Paul,

Many of us have been to France/Holland where we could have taken red fuel in jerry cans and illegally topped up while over there but we didn't did we as that just wouldn't be British !

I know there will be a few evaders as there would be no matter what system was thought of but in the main you can expect us to act honourably, we have too much to loose if caught (our honourable reputations !)

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Paul, I totally disagree with you. Dual pricing will work as well as the admirable HIPs.

Hang on, just read that HIPs are not acceptable to mortgage lenders, so not only do you have to pay for a survey to produce the pack for your house, but you have to pay for a survey for the new house as the lenders will not accept an HIP prepared for it.

As usual, and as I have pointed out before, this government is incapable of producing legislation that works properly. Never happened when we had a proper house of lords impartially scrutinising every word of new Acts.

 

[jfm]

Paul
The practical evidence is that this will work. That's exactly what happens in France right now, and has done for years. Each fuel dock has two diesel pumps, commercial and leisure. If you are say a fishing boat and present commercial papers you get 60c fuel, if not you buy the €1.20 fuel. There is no black market trade in fishermen/commercial boats then secretly pumping the cheaper fuel to pleasure boats, the fines are too big and folks are a bit more honest and less tightfisted than that.

Incidentally, the fuel is kept physically separate in France. The commercial fuel is held by the fuel dock in a separate physical tank so the inventory levels/sale of it can be audited against photocopy commercial papers etc that the fuel seller has to retain from each transaction. But that's a minor ish detial. The concept of selling the same product at 60 and 1.20 side by side is well proven in France. I guess you need reasonbly stiff penalties for non compliance

Similar in Spain and Italy afaik, tho it's been a while since I saw how it works in Spain

 

[Gludy]

Yes ... it will work as well as HIP - I have to agree.

The governement are not trying to srt up an infrastructure to work within - they are trying to manage every detail and frankly most of them do not seem to have the sense to even manage their own lives let alone the country!!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I can confirm after 12 days crusiing in Italy, thats how it works
1.20 EU for normal fuel and 55 cent for the tax free commercial fuel
all pumps had seperate pumps for the commercial and leisure fuel

 

[henryf]

What I`ve never quite understood is that if the government are "on our side" in terms of not wanting to put road tax on red diesel but being forced to by Europe why not keep red diesel and simply charge the minimum duty as required by Europe. I`ll wager diesel isn`t £1 (or 1.4 euros) a litre in Cherbourg. If it means diesel goes up to 60 or 70p a litre then so be it but but why does it need to be more expensive than Europe. If commercial operators get a discounted rate then either the vendor (as with Yarmouth) discounts or they send in receipts to claim back duty (a far better way as pseudo "commercial" operators will be put off having to apply for a rebate each time, they might have a pop at getting a ticket on an annual basis that allowed them to a discount).

Henry

 

[Wiggo]

Yes, but we don't have separate pumps, that's what makes it unauditable...

 

[muckypup]

It has to be better than introducing white for boaters... i really wouldn't want to change my tanks, or have to pay someone to pro clean them. At the rate I use fuel I would probably have to throw some away (the current tank has been in for over 6 months as I seem to be averaging about 8mpg). Also those who want cheaper fuel for heating would have to fit another tank.

S.

 

[henryf]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but we don't have separate pumps, that's what makes it unauditable...

[/ QUOTE ]

Rubbish. You press the commercial button on your till and write down the commercial operators card number. If you are old fashioned you write on the carbon receipt x litres at a commercial rate of y. You know how many litres you`ve bought as a fuel supplier and your invoices / till receipts will show how many litres you`ve sold at leisure and commercial rates. Each seperate invoice will have the commercial operator`s duty discount card number. No different from us working out the Vat. Some items are non vat-able.

Alternatively just sell the stuff at one price (red - with leisure rate of duty) and have the commercial operator apply for a duty refund based on their fuel purchase receipts (or offset the amount against any Vat they may owe).

Henry

 

[Wiggo]

Agreed. I was replying to the posts about the rest of Europe having separate pumps.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Diesel in Italy is all white, same goes for the commercial that's what all pumps said

in Malta the Duty Free is red in color

I dont understand this idea of changing tanks as to my knowledge, red diesel is only a color for legal purposes then anything else

 

[Gumpy]

Cant see why it wont work
Seems like a good idea to me.
I will be allowed to put reduced tax red in my heating tank and will have to put full tax red in my propulsion tank.
Where is the problem with that. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Julian

 

[Pete7]

[ QUOTE ]
I think some fisherman/charter boats etc out there will be making more by selling their red to have a nice little side line than they make out of fishing etc .

[/ QUOTE ] I agree, but in the grand scheme of things how much of a problem will it be compared to DHSS fraud for example. Will the Excise men be carrying out night time patrols along quiet Cornish Coves hoping to find a yachtie carrying a cask of red stuff down to his boat.

Pete

 

[gjgm]

another half empty glass..
Of course it will work, unless you take the view that only 100.0000000pct compliance means that it works. A few well publicised punishments here and there for abuse and the vast majority of leisure users are going to be paying the correct tax. I really cant see why it would be in a fuel dock's interest to pump people a bit of the cheap stuff on the side, or a fishing boat to meet secretely at night someone to pump from one boat to another.
All seems extremely sensible to me.

 

[mainshiptom]

In my local Tesco last night a block was buying 10 bottles of 3 liters of sunflower oil at £1.57 , when he got out of the shop with the help of his wife they filled up the car (Vw transporter) and left the bottles empty behind.

My point is if people want to cheat on the tax they can do so right now !

Tom

 

[Wiggo]

[ QUOTE ]
Will the Excise men be carrying out night time patrols along quiet Cornish Coves hoping to find a yachtie carrying a cask of red stuff down to his boat.


[/ QUOTE ]Never underestimate the stupidity of politicians...

 

[longjohnsilver]

All sounds good to me! /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[Brayman]

Just be careful you don't get your tanks mixed up, you will be gutted if you found you had put cheap red into your propulsion tanks rather than your heating tanks!