Red - A solution that will not work

[Deleted User YDKXO]

[ QUOTE ]
However, why can't the government charge the minimum that the EU, formally known as the ECC, demands?
I'm sure we would all be happy at 70p ish per litre and the commercial users could claim back the extra duty, much like folk now claim back VAT.


[/ QUOTE ]

In an ideal world that would be an equitable solution but I believe that HMG have already ruled out a separate class of fuel duty for leisure boat users so it's going to be road fuel duty even though boats are not road vehicles and that means 17.5% VAT as well

 

[Gludy]

Under EU rules they have to charge the same as the road use and charge at least the minimum duty - hence we end up with the dearest fuel in Europe because we charge so much for other users on the road.

 

[MapisM]

Understood, thanks - I initially assumed that you were talking about export duty-free diesel, which is another story (and available also for non-commercial boats, upon certain conditions).
On a side note, do you know exactly which kind of documents they required, to prove that the boat was a "commercial" one?
PS: did that also depend on where the boat was registered (Italy/other EC Countries/non-EC Countries)?

 

[Sneds]

"Would the last person to leave the UK please turn the lights off!"
Don't know who said that but quite apt me thinks.
I guess we'll just have to roll over and accept whatever happens.
We have just bought another boat (diesel) p-ex'd our petrol one, it is the end of red that made us do it now instead of the planed date, two years hence. At least we get a year of relatively cheap fuel.
Oh well, happy boating ....... /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

[ QUOTE ]
Understood, thanks - I initially assumed that you were talking about export duty-free diesel, which is another story (and available also for non-commercial boats, upon certain conditions).
On a side note, do you know exactly which kind of documents they required, to prove that the boat was a "commercial" one?
PS: did that also depend on where the boat was registered (Italy/other EC Countries/non-EC Countries)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Mapis
you have to prove that the boat is registered and is being used for commercial purposes charter and fishing registration (MCA code. RINA CC etc)
I think if you go to the Guardia Costiera office in Italy they should help you to understand
now this system is being introduced in Malta for fishing and commercial yachts also
many flags in EU are getting organised for commercial yacht registration (charter) Malta, English, Italian, Croatian flag are the one I am sure which give this service but are not the only ones I am sure
as for duty free fuel this can be given to any yacht/boat if going outside the EU (next port of call), in your case being in the adriatic Croatia is one of those countries/options, the price is the same as the commercial fuel which is/was 55 cent of EURO per litre in mid August

 

[gjgm]

Under EU rules they have to charge the same as the road use
////////////
Where did you get this from, out of interest?

 

[Gludy]

Look under the red diesel forum.
It was well discussed and detailed when all this was discussed.
The dereg means that we have to charge the minimum, the second rule is that we cannot charge differently for any personal use - even off road bio is to be charged the same as on road bio.
It is the combination of the two rules that mean we have to pay road rates and cannot go to EU rate. If our road rate was the same as say France then out boat rate would also be the same.
Of course this does not let HMG off the hook because they signed up to these rules and to control from Brussels bery much against the wishes of their population.

 

[gjgm]

ah, yes, thanks. Its in the consultation document, I see...
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPorta...CE_PROD1_027786

 

[tinstaafl]

I note the jovial comments about having large heating fuel tank and a small propulsion tank but serioualy, don't most boats draw fuel from the same tank?

If this is the case, whilst being used as a floating caravan over winter, what's the problem filling the the tank with lower tax red since a large proportion of it may be used for heating?

I guess just another reason why it's ludicrious and unworkable.

Simon

 

[Gludy]

My guess is that unless you can produce commercial documents at the pump all fuel will be at the high rate. They will not allow for heating fuel but it would be perfectly legal to bring your own domestic heating fuel and dump it in your tank to heat your boat - then again maybe we can teach the Eberspacher to only used the lower rate fuel - maybe offered as an accesory as we live more and more in Brown land. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Of course those who live on their boats will then have to get a full time occupancy certificate from the newly created HMG MPTDNE department (Managing Problems That Do Not Exist department). This same department will be experienced in boating matters as they will be managaing the new boat driving licences and employing the newly created Coastal enforcment officers who will patrol our coasts in large fast yellow ribs using laser guns to see if your boat is fast enough to qualify for it being in offence to be drunk in charge!

Now once you have your live aboard documents stamped you will then need to go to another department that now manages HIPPS so that you can get an energy survey done of your boat to see how much low rate fuel you need. You will then be issued with stamps to allow you to draw the low tax fuel up to that amount.

The businesses who have to run these schemes will of course not be paid to do so but will be liable for any mistakes and so fuel pump staff who have completed their safety training for being able to support themselves unaided standing on two feet as they fill you up will now need training in all the extra rules and coupons.

This all costs a lot of money to administer and so the boat friving licence fee has to rise to pay for it all. Its about this time that HMG may notice there are actually no boats left to take fuel or need a driving licence and hence HMG will be able to claim a new green award for doing away with a total industry albeit accidentaly. ......



I have to fo now some chaps in white coats have arrived ....

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

[ QUOTE ]
Under EU rules they have to charge the same as the road use and charge at least the minimum duty - hence we end up with the dearest fuel in Europe because we charge so much for other users on the road.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I don't think thats correct. The point of the EC regulation is to stop one EU country unfairly subsidising it's own industry by granting advantageous fuel duty rates. It does not require countries to charge the same duty for road as for marine fuel only that a minimum level of duty is charged. The UK govt itself has stated that it will not introduce a special rate of marine leisure fuel duty, hence the assumption that road fuel duty will be charged

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

in fact in Italy you find Diesel prices from 1.15 up to 1.25 in marinas
in Motorways it is 1.15 and the higher grade blu diesel was 1.18 or some other name
in cities the price was always over 1.20 EU

 

[Gludy]

No - there is a rule stating that the same rate must apply and its in the derg document for all to see in the link posted a few messages back in this thread.

If other countries stick to that or not is their concern. The price may not be the same but the duty should be.

 

[rickp]

[ QUOTE ]
in fact in Italy you find Diesel prices from 1.15 up to 1.25 in marinas
in Motorways it is 1.15 and the higher grade blu diesel was 1.18 or some other name
in cities the price was always over 1.20 EU

[/ QUOTE ]

Its irrelevant what marinas charge. The claim by HMG is that the duty must be the same on both due to some EU rule. We all know that marinas will charge more 'cos they can.

Rick

 

[rubberduck]

When the men in white coats have finished with you, send them round here cos I am trying to make a huge floating chip fryer to avoid paying duty on veg oil /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[PCUK]

Nuke Europe (especially France) and solve many problems at once!

 

[Nickcf]

[ QUOTE ]
Look under the red diesel forum.
It was well discussed and detailed when all this was discussed.
The dereg means that we have to charge the minimum, the second rule is that we cannot charge differently for any personal use - even off road bio is to be charged the same as on road bio.
It is the combination of the two rules that mean we have to pay road rates and cannot go to EU rate. If our road rate was the same as say France then out boat rate would also be the same.
Of course this does not let HMG off the hook because they signed up to these rules and to control from Brussels bery much against the wishes of their population.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not clear. The gov are saying that as red (generally) is NOT ULSD then a higher rate of tax will apply (it already exists) than for ULSD road
diesel. The EU only says that the same fuel cannot be charged more than one rate (for fraud reasons primarily). Red is not for road use so why could they not legislate that red has a new rate of tax (ie the minimum) which is only available for non road users. Commercial operators using red claim back the tax (and VAT presumably).

I understand the private flying peeps are trying to do exactly this with avaition fuel (ie a closed user group) so that they only pay the minimum tax.

 

[Gludy]

I wish that was so but thHMG have increased the off road bio rate to on road bio rate using the same rules.

Of course they could have got around the issue if they had wanted to.

 

[cliffordpope]

But red is for road use. Farmers are allowed to use red in their vehicles for travelling between fields, and in fact for any "agricultural" purpose. There are other exemptions too - mowers, hedgecutters, etc, and also private generators.
Our local garage has a "red" pump. You can fill cans from it and put them in the boot, but have to sign a declaration that it will not be used for unauthorised road use if buying more than 20 litres at a time.
No mention of boat or any other use, just road.