Red - A solution that will not work

[MapisM]

You previously said that:

[ QUOTE ]
I can confirm after 12 days crusiing in Italy, thats how it works
1.20 EU for normal fuel and 55 cent for the tax free commercial fuel
all pumps had seperate pumps for the commercial and leisure fuel

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, how does that fit with:

[ QUOTE ]
Diesel in Italy is all white, same goes for the commercial that's what all pumps said

[/ QUOTE ]

???

And in any case - if you confirm the first statement - where did you find that?

 

[KevB]

Why should we pay equal cost for an inferior fuel?
Red diesel has a lower cetane rating than white and white is ultra low sulphur. They can't have it both ways. If I'm expected to pay DERV tax....I want DERV.

I believe it's true that Volvo had problems with their D series engines when first imported to the UK because they were spec'd to run on normal white diesel, but when filled up with inferior red they ran rough.

It seems we are going to be shafted both on the tax and on the quality of the product we are being taxed on /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[rubberduck]

I think most on here are fair minded and obey the rule of law, but when the rule of law starts to get used as a means of collecting unfair tax's, such as in the days of Robin Hood etc, then people will start to cheat. Some will get caught, which will lead to rebellion, and then what ? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
(not just talking about boat fuel but the whole picture)

 

[BrokerBen]

A very valid point about fuel quality. Many pumps basically kick out gasoil which is nowhere near as good for engines as white diesel we can put in cars.

The suppliers surely wont be able to justify charging full price and giving us red quality diesel. It's not like road petrol stations dont make money, or at the money is made in the distribution process, so pontoon suppliers should be able to manage the same thing!

 

[jfm]

Dont see the problem. In italy there is commercial and leisure fuel, but it's all the same colour, white. Same in france. They do not put colour dye in the commercial fuel becuase they use other means to control/enforce its use

 

[MapisM]

I assumed the tax-free diesel for export was what Poweryacht was talking about, and that works differently (just at authorized pumps, and requiring specific docs).
I didn't consider that by 'white' he could just mean ...the colour (duh! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

 

[gjgm]

except MDL, I seem to recall. Their message was they charge more bcz its better fuel. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Gumpy]

[ QUOTE ]
Why should we pay equal cost for an inferior fuel?
Red diesel has a lower cetane rating than white and white is ultra low sulphur. They can't have it both ways. If I'm expected to pay DERV tax....I want DERV.


[/ QUOTE ]

There is nothing to stop you getting DERV depending on how much you use. As my use is small compared to my heating use I will just buy from the cheapest supply be that DERV or bio diesel and if I have to transport jerry cans then so be it.

I can see a market for road fuel stations that are waterside putting in extra pumps.............

Julian

 

[Major Catastrophe]

[ QUOTE ]
Cant see why it wont work
Seems like a good idea to me.
I will be allowed to put reduced tax red in my heating tank and will have to put full tax red in my propulsion tank.
Where is the problem with that. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Julian

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem as long as they don't twig that your heating tank takes 600 litres and your propulsion tank 30 litres.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

[ QUOTE ]
I assumed the tax-free diesel for export was what Poweryacht was talking about, and that works differently (just at authorized pumps, and requiring specific docs).
I didn't consider that by 'white' he could just mean ...the colour (duh! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]

the pumps made it clear, that if I had documents showing I was a commercial craft for charter etc or fishing I could get the diesel
now in Italy it was white and they all confirmed it was the same quality as the one I was puttng at 1.20
80% of the pumps in Italy/Sicily had this seperate system, but especially in the big harbours marinas like
Portorosa and Riposto

 

[Its_Only_Money]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but we don't have separate pumps, that's what makes it unauditable...

[/ QUOTE ]

Seperate pumps easier to install than seperate tanks tho, would be possible to have a sealed/auditable commercial pump and a leisure pump running from the same tank I would have thought, as other have said if the penalty for getting it wrong (deliberately or accidentally), then compliance will follow...

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

[ QUOTE ]
Why should we pay equal cost for an inferior fuel?
Red diesel has a lower cetane rating than white and white is ultra low sulphur. They can't have it both ways. If I'm expected to pay DERV tax....I want DERV.

I believe it's true that Volvo had problems with their D series engines when first imported to the UK because they were spec'd to run on normal white diesel, but when filled up with inferior red they ran rough.

It seems we are going to be shafted both on the tax and on the quality of the product we are being taxed on /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the problem you have and will have in UK
the Govt IMO wants to sell you inferior fuel at the same cost of the white
now the real problem in UK is the over taxation on fuel
to my knowledge UK followed by Italy and Norway have the higher fuel costs

street Diesel prices in the uk is about 1.35 EURO as much as Petrol in Italy
in Italy they are discussing with the help of the govt to make it 10 cent cheaper which would make it in line would other EU countries of 1.00 to 1.10 EURO at the moment

I think putting the blame on the EU on the exsessive fuel costs in the UK is just what some people want the consumer to beleive, but then in the UK you have free roads, something in France & Italy does not exist, as you pay for the Motorway service over there
I think it is not fair to charge boats for a road tax on fuel when they dont use any of it....

 

[oldgit]

At our fuel barge I pay one rate and the commercial boys pay a different rate.Been like this since I have been filling up there,so no change really.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Yes that is the point, Poweryacht. The real extortionists in all this are the UK govt who levy the highest average petrol and diesel fuel duties in Europe and yet spend the least % of motoring related tax income on road and transport infrastructure construction and maintenance. UK govt collects about £40billion from motorists in fuel duty, road fund licence and VAT income and spends less than £4billion on road building and maintenance. You may have autostrada that you have to pay for to use but the UK has a much smaller motorway network than Italy relative to the number of vehicle miles driven

 

[DinghyMan]

Our roads are not "free" - most of up pay to use them

 

[Sneds]

All very interesting and I don,t have a solution.
However, why can't the government charge the minimum that the EU, formally known as the ECC, demands?
I'm sure we would all be happy at 70p ish per litre and the commercial users could claim back the extra duty, much like folk now claim back VAT.
Another point, will VAT be charged at 17.5%?
And, how can we be expected road fuel tax on a vehicle that isn't on the road?
What can we do?

 

[Sneds]

[ QUOTE ]
Our roads are not "free" - most of up pay to use them

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is, we do conform!
The silent majority.

 

[tazzle]

Ah well. During Raedwald's recent refit I made sure that everything was in line with the MCA workboat COP - just one modification more to be made during the winter and I'll get her coded.

Then I can use her for leisure and pay full duty, but buy commercial fuel for all the times she's on passage from a leisure trip to a port where she'll be available for commercial use.

Strangely, several small craft (Lochins, Newhaven Sea Warriors) in the yard where I was working were also preparing for coding.

 

[Frontier]

[ QUOTE ]
Why should we pay equal cost for an inferior fuel?
Red diesel has a lower cetane rating than white and white is ultra low sulphur. They can't have it both ways. If I'm expected to pay DERV tax....I want DERV.

I believe it's true that Volvo had problems with their D series engines when first imported to the UK because they were spec'd to run on normal white diesel, but when filled up with inferior red they ran rough.

It seems we are going to be shafted both on the tax and on the quality of the product we are being taxed on


[/ QUOTE ]

I second that, if I am paying full price I want quality fuel not this old crap we have now. At least I might be able to save a bit by not needing the cleaning additives

 

[CalicoJack]

Is it safe to use ULSD in older diesel engines, or does it create problems with valve lubrication?