Recreational Craft Directive

[MINESAPINT2]

I am looking for my next boat and am interested in a boat that happens to be home built but also has an RCD certificate. My understanding is the RCD does not put an end to home building (for personal use) but it does require the home builder to keep the boat for 5 years before selling it. In fact during this 5 years it is not even permitted to give the boat away for free.

I would like to make it clear at this point I am perfectly happy to be corrected. I am on here seeking information not to advise you of what you are already aware.

During this 5 year period a persons circumstances could change (divorce? whatever) and there is a need to sell the boat before the 5 years is up. Under these circumstances it is possible to apply to one of the RCD issuing authorities (I think the RYA is one of them) and providing everything is in order the certificate will be issued.

I asked the person selling this boat to send me a copy of the RCD certificate which he did. I then realised I am in no position to judge whether this certificate is genuine or fake?

You will realise that in the event of an accident requiring an insurance claim the insurance company will be all over the paperwork and if the RCD is forged it is likely insurance would be void.

I must always make clear I am not suggesting the RCD in this case is forged, I would just like to know how to determine in any case whether the RCD is genuine. Whereas a £20 note is a bit tricky to forge (I have never really perfected it) an RCD certificate for many people will be a piece of cake.

How can I tell?

Thanks

MINESAPINT2

 

[Deleted member 36384]

There should be other paperwork associated with the certificate which you should ask to see that verifies that the boat has been assessed as RCD compliant, also the boat must have the CE mark applied to it with the identification number. The main document is the technical file for the boat which will have been presented to the body that issues the certificate once they are satisfied that it is compliant. I would ask the builder for the technical file and who reviewed it for RCD compliance.

Correction: The CE plate does not have to be added to self build boats, my mistake.

You may also wish to engage a broker who could check all is in order for you and who has experience in this area, quite a few home built boats pass through this process so it's not a mystery to brokers and they know how to manage the paperwork trail.

A boat which is not exempt from the RCD, but which is not CE marked for whatever reason – such as a boat which was manufactured outside the EEA which is being imported into the EEA (which is not only visiting the EEA for reasons of tourism or in transit) – will need a post construction assessment (which may result in significant modifications) in order for the boat to be certified RCD compliant.

If you are buying a boat which does not have a builder’s plate/CE marking you will need to establish whether or not it should be RCD compliant. If it should be RCD compliant then you will need a Post Construction Assessment. If it is exempt from the RCD then you should get documentary evidence to prove this in case you are asked for such proof at a later date.

http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/legal/buying-a-boat/Pages/recreational-craft-directive.aspx

Also read http://www.marinesurveysltd.co.uk/recreational_craft_directive_guide.htm

 

[PaulRainbow]

Your understanding of the procedure seems correct to me. If you have the certificate, does it not say who issued it ? If not, contact the seller and ask him, then contact the company that did the assessment.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Below is a sort of checklist from the RYA which they would use. It gives you some clarity around the documentation that is needed to demonstrate RCD compliance. The self builder should have access to this information in order to have obtained the RCD certificate. If you request this data and it is supplied perhaps this would give you a bit of reassurance that the boat does comply. If the self builder can't, and it is still worth it to you, could you gather the documents up and do the check or have a surveyor do the check?

See Section (P) Some RCD Definitions, Technical Documentation

https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollecti...ents/RCD Documents/1 RCD Compliance Guide.pdf

 

[Tranona]

You need to find the details of what the RCD certificate covers. It is not unusual to have a certificate that covers a part finished boat such as a hull and deck which certifies that the boat at that stage complies. Then a home builder could complete the boat without having the additional work certified, and then fall into the 5 year rule on resale. Or, he could then have a certifying body cover the rest of the construction and issue a certificate, or have a post construction assessment for full certification. He could then sell the boat within the 5 years.

As already suggested there is a set of backup materials to support the certification of an individual boat which the seller should have, together with VAT evidence covering the major components used in the build.

 

[Thistle]

Why not put the problem to the prospective insurer? Show then the certificate you have and ask for insurance to be provided on the basis of that certificate. If they accept it at that stage it would be difficult for them to use it as a reason to void the insurance at a later date.

 

[Tranona]

Why not put the problem to the prospective insurer? Show then the certificate you have and ask for insurance to be provided on the basis of that certificate. If they accept it at that stage it would be difficult for them to use it as a reason to void the insurance at a later date.

Nothing to do with insurance. Insurers are not in the least bit interested.

The concern is about the legality of the sale of a home built boat. It is an offence for the seller to sell a home built boat within 5 years of launch without having a Certificate of Conformity for the complete boat.

Therefore it is wise for the prospective purchaser to satisfy himself that the boat complies as Trading Standards have the power to impound a non compliant boat.

 

[MINESAPINT2]

Thanks all,

There is a bit more I should have mentioned in my original post. Although the boat was home built and completed only 5 or 6 years ago (date uncertain) she is already on her third owner. I have no idea whose signature should appear on an RCD certificate but on this one it is the original home builder. The date on the certificate is 2013.

I phoned HPIVS who advised me to send them a copy of the certificate for verification but the vendor did make clear he was prepared to send me copies of paperwork for my eyes only. The HPIVS did confirm forged certificates are not unusual but again I have not made a judgement in this case, I am just trying to learn.

Mike

 

[Tranona]

There is no legal requirement to have a Certificate of Conformity with a boat, although with production boats which are covered by a blanket Certificate, a copy is bound into the owners handbook. All the supporting documentation is held at the builders.
In the case of the boat you are looking at, as I explained above, the only point at which it becomes important is when the builder first sells the boat - exactly the same as a builder or dealer. The CE mark rules are a commercial activity that places the onus on the seller to only sell CE approved products.

The Certificate really ceases to have any value once the first sale has been completed, other than to say that the boat was built to the standards. Many boats, as they get used and modified/repaired no longer meet the standards aand there is no legal requirement for periodic inspection against the standard.

So, in your situation, I would not be concerned about lack of back up paperwork as there is no requirement for you to have it. I would rely on the normal assessment of the boat using your surveyor if you wish to ensure the boat is as described and suitable for your use.

 

[superheat6k]

And all this EU inspired nonsense has saved how many lives ? ... Glad we will soon be out, although the macro industry built up around this will no doubt fight hard against having such nonsense cancelled.

 

[Tranona]

And all this EU inspired nonsense has saved how many lives ? ... Glad we will soon be out, although the macro industry built up around this will no doubt fight hard against having such nonsense cancelled.

Highly unlikely anything will change as most boats sold in the UK are made in the EU.

It is not nonsense as those of us who were involved in building boats before the RCD will admit. There were some appalling design and construction standards. While it is an EU standard by far the biggest driver behind it was the UK boating industry. At least now boats are generally built to a common standard, even though not everything is perfect. The big negative to the current arrangements is that changing and improving matters is depressingly slow because of the structures of the EU.

 

[Keith 66]

A lot of keels still fall off & crap quality seacocks are now acceptable. Such is progress!

 

[macd]

Highly unlikely anything will change as most boats sold in the UK are made in the EU.

...and the manufacturer of any boat built in the UK just might hope to sell it in the rather large market to their south-east.

 

[Tranona]

A lot of keels still fall off & crap quality seacocks are now acceptable. Such is progress!

What nonsense. Where is the evidence to support you assertion about "lots of keels"? The seacocks fitted to boats now are the same as they have been for many years pre RCD - nothing has changed so your "now acceptable" comment is also nonsense. Hundreds of thousands in use - and no reliable evidence of failures that cause boats to sink.

 

[Tranona]

...and the manufacturer of any boat built in the UK just might hope to sell it in the rather large market to their south-east.

As many do, particularly MOBOs where 80-90% of all output from the "biggies" is for export.

 

[Max Campbell]

I sail a (my)self-built boat with no RCD paperwork. I've declared all this, and Craftinsure have always provided insurance, both when I trailer-sailed, and now she's on a mooring for the summers.

You may wish to have the re-assurance of RCD, but you don't need it for insurance purposes.

Tranona may be right that the relevant point is the legality of the sale, but the OP did make a point of potentially encountering insurance claim difficulties. I don't think there would be insurance difficulties - you could assume no valid RCD documentation for insurance purposes.

 

[DownWest]

I sail a (my)self-built boat with no RCD paperwork. I've declared all this, and Craftinsure have always provided insurance, both when I trailer-sailed, and now she's on a mooring for the summers.
.

Max, your boat was a kit from an OZ outfit.
I built one from a well known OZ/Scots designer. It is now 10yrs old and I might sell her. When I registered her with the local guys at La Rochelle, they said that it was my neck if it failed and I agreed not to sell it under five years. I signed a chit saying it was my responsibility as the builder.

While most designers work within the RCD limits, if you build it yourself, then after five years from first launch, it is considered certified.
Incidently, the self build rules apply up to around something like 25mtrs. But you would be insane to build a boat that big without a Naval Arquitect involved.

I do see quite a few home built boats for sale in UK that are clearly not five years old, but, since there is no compulsory reg, one can ignore the RCD.

 

[superheat6k]

Highly unlikely anything will change as most boats sold in the UK are made in the EU.

It is not nonsense as those of us who were involved in building boats before the RCD will admit. There were some appalling design and construction standards. While it is an EU standard by far the biggest driver behind it was the UK boating industry. At least now boats are generally built to a common standard, even though not everything is perfect. The big negative to the current arrangements is that changing and improving matters is depressingly slow because of the structures of the EU.

My opinion on EU interference in our entire lives is not going to change. I don't doubt some things concerning boat building have improved, but for instance the RCD bars me from buying a boat in the US, even one pre-dating the RCD (which IMHO is a trade restriction and nothing at all to do with boat safe build quality, otherwise it would apply to all boats, not just non EU ones pre RCD), and importing it to the UK without massive and in my view completely unnecessary extra costs, and for boats built with a fine a sturdy reputation is the US.

When I was looking in 2015 I started to look at several possible boats on the East Coast of the US, until I looked into the RCD requirement, which meant it was simply impractical.

 

[Tranona]

My opinion on EU interference in our entire lives is not going to change. I don't doubt some things concerning boat building have improved, but for instance the RCD bars me from buying a boat in the US, even one pre-dating the RCD (which IMHO is a trade restriction and nothing at all to do with boat safe build quality, otherwise it would apply to all boats, not just non EU ones pre RCD), and importing it to the UK without massive and in my view completely unnecessary extra costs, and for boats built with a fine a sturdy reputation is the US.

When I was looking in 2015 I started to look at several possible boats on the East Coast of the US, until I looked into the RCD requirement, which meant it was simply impractical.

That applies equally the other way. You cannot import a non US boat into the US without it complying with their rules. Same in Australia and no doubt other countries.

No different from cars, motorcycles, electrical equipment and so on. There is nothing new about states restricting imports from other states using non tariff barriers.

So, you are not being treated any differently from others and I was suggest that the number of people inconvenienced by this limitation on imported old boats is tiny. You always have the option of modifying your imported boat to meet EU requirements in just the same way as those who import cars from the US. Of course the standards to which these old cheap US boats are built are so far away from EU (and current US) standards makes it uneconomic - one of the reasons why the boats are so cheap!

 

[superheat6k]

That applies equally the other way. You cannot import a non US boat into the US without it complying with their rules. Same in Australia and no doubt other countries.

No different from cars, motorcycles, electrical equipment and so on. There is nothing new about states restricting imports from other states using non tariff barriers.

So, you are not being treated any differently from others and I was suggest that the number of people inconvenienced by this limitation on imported old boats is tiny. You always have the option of modifying your imported boat to meet EU requirements in just the same way as those who import cars from the US. Of course the standards to which these old cheap US boats are built are so far away from EU (and current US) standards makes it uneconomic - one of the reasons why the boats are so cheap!

So a pre 1997 (i think it was) bathtub built in the EU is OK, but one built in the US isn't. I simply do not understand why the RCD was made retrospective, unless of course to act as a trading impediment. This undermines the entire principal of the safety concerns behind the RCD, besides I do not need Nanny state nor Nanny EU keeping me safe thank you.

I choose to go to sea, I have seen the sea pretty much at its worse, and if I die at sea so be it, and I shall die happy, besides better than a heart attack or worse in an NHS bed.