Ray Marine, Anatoly and Hey Kim have you seen this

[charles_reed]

Re: Ray Marine, Anatoly and Hey Kim have you seen

Perhaps he owns a submersible.

Besides he's deluding himself if he thinks they're really waterproof.

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[charles_reed]

Re: To be fair to Raymarine

I'd agree, very approachable, very fair and now far better behaved toward their customers than when they were owned by the Yanks.

;-) Perhaps they specialise in unreasonable customers? ;-)

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[Chris_Robb]

Re: Ray Marine, Anatoly and Hey Kim have you seen

I think the main problem with ALL instruments is that they absorb the heat of the sun then when it goes in they suck in the damp air. Other instruments such as radar create their own heat, so when you switch off........

But Raymarine instruments do seem to be failing more than others

Just get a covered cockpit and no more worries mate!

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[poggy]

Re: Ray Marine, Anatoly and Hey Kim have you seen

Hi,

It is neither expensive nor difficult to have fully waterproof key board operated products. You simply use an isolated keyboard which is not integrated into the PCB. These are not expensive or difficult to implement. I have used them.

Although I have no experience of Ray Marine products, if you design a product for a job, then you shouldn't expect customers to have to make allowances for a product which is to be used in a relatively harsh environment.

Poggy

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[tome]

Re: Ray Marine, Anatoly and Hey Kim have you seen

It's not the keyboard which is the problem, it's the display. Specifically, the expansion rates of the housing and the window. Getting the best materials (non-scratch) and the seals right takes a surprising amount of engineering effort and is not easy to achieve.

Garmin are to be congratulated in this respect, as are B&G from all accounts. Sounds like Raymarine have a little way to go, but if it was easy they would have done it long ago.

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[charles_reed]

Re: Ray Marine, Anatoly and Hey Kim have you seen

Exactly, and see the price rocket and users complaints about the clumsiness of the syatem - you still have the problem of NU due to water ingress, this time into the keyboard.

remember watches, they used to be waterproof and non-waterproof. Now they're ALL water-resistant and they specify the head of water they can stand - even diving watches.

You do have waterproof instruments, available to the military, at a rough estimate you're looking at x3 the price.

A more feasible solution than the one you propose: only mount your instruments around the nav station, then they're warm, comfy and dry. As most yachts are grossly overmanned you can have a full-time navigator down there ic instruments.

Not so good for single-handers who are prone to seasickness, but then it's an imperfect world.

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[charles_reed]

Re: Ray Marine, Anatoly and Hey Kim have you seen

Whilst the windows do produce a challenge you'll find that, especially on all-in-one autopilots that the most common water ingress is through the keypad membrane followed by the drive-seal.

I quote two sources, Navico's service chief and Steve from Raymarine.

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[charles_reed]

Re: Ray Marine, Anatoly and Hey Kim have you seen

Whilst the windows do produce a challenge you'll find that, especially on all-in-one autopilots that the most common water ingress is through the keypad membrane followed by the drive-seal.

I quote two sour

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Ray Marine, Anatoly and Hey Kim have you seen

Chris - you have just given me a little clue as to a possible reason helping why we have not had any problems waterwise with our ST50 instruments (yet?). Every week, without fail, they are left on for at least one continuous session of at least 30 hours, and that has been so for the 7 years of their life. And, if we are away for a month, they are on for the month. While the heat generated will be low, perhaps it is enough.

The other thing is the installation instructions for ST50's (and I assume the others of the family) make it very clear that they have to be fitted onto a waterproof console (so the rear of the instrument is protected) with sealing tape between the back of the instrument and the console. The breather on the back has to be able to breathe into the console also. Maybe that is not always strictly followed.

John

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[tome]

Re: Ray Marine, Anatoly and Hey Kim have you seen

Charles

I can't challenge their experience, but only speak for my own. For the past 8 years my department has been developing and manufacturing bespoke navigation equipment for our company and in that time have learned how expensive and difficult packaging screens is.

The only problem we've ever had with membrane keyboards was air expansion and contraction within the units, especially during aircraft transportation. This was solved by a breathable membrane (actually Goretex!). These keypads are still in everyday use after 7 years of commercial abuse. We've had very few failures.

On the other hand, I could post dozens of shots of failed/cracked screens during temperature cycling until we had the bonding technique and screen materials precisely correct. The qualification process on the latest screen took over 4 months to complete.

Perhaps there are good reasons why Naavico and Raymarine have problems with their keypads, and maybe we just got lucky first time with ours.

Regards
Tom

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[aod]

Re: Ray Marine, Anatoly and Hey Kim have you seen

Charles this message of yours is at best described as condescending and at worst absolute crap.

I have a Garmin with a keyboard. Guaranteed to withstand total immersion up to a metre for half an hour............................. It has a screen.....................it has a keyboard................it's reliable.

It's an absurdity to suggest that salt water ingress is an inevitability of life and that corrosion and failure for this reason are to be factored into your sailing. It's also equaly absurd to suggest mounting instruments in protected areas (like the companionway) because in simple terms........................................I can't bloody see them from the helm!

You may feel that Ray Marine offer good customer careand indeed I wouldn't dispute this but Hey!.............................Their products are so unreliable they would have to wouldn't they!

I am sure if I put all of my instruments inside the boat they would last forever but when I am sailing I tend to be outside and that's where I need the data. If I spend £300 on an instrument I expect it to be fit for purpose. Boats sail on water = damp = spray = sometimes waves.......................are a fact of life. If Garmin and G&G can do it why can't Ray Marine..................................................the simple answer is they can...............................but they choose not to!

I am astounded that you state Ray Marine products are 'Equal if not better than their competitors' because I cannot for the life of me work out how electronic instruments that are known to leak, corrode and later fail can be better than ones that don't leak, don't corrode and don't fail!


Forgive me aod, for saying it, but aren't you a little naive?

It's impossible to entirely waterproof electrical instruments which have a keyboard and if you did have them available you'd certainly not like the price.
Speak to a technician working for Simrad, Raymarine or B&G and they'll confirm.

With regard to the 4000 ST control head, it really needs to be mounted in a protected area. Mine is in the companionway and it's given sterling service for 11 years.

I've found a vast improvement in their customer care since Raytheon had their management buyout and became Raymarine. Mind you it was pretty dire before then.

Within normal commercial considerations, I've found their equipment the equal, if not better than their competitors.

I fear that water-ingress into keypad-controlled electronic instrumentation is a fact of life with which we all have to live - just as all vertical twins engines are inherently unbalanced.

PS I have another manufacturers' instrumentation on my boat and no commercial interest in Raymarine.



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[richardandtracy]

Nitrogen Fill

I wonder why companies insist on wasting their money doing a nitrogen fill? It happens right across the board from small instruments to satellite transport containers. It stems from a total misunderstanding of why moisture leaks through all materials. Basically it's all down to partial pressures - if it's low on one side and high on the other side, the difference in pressure will force the gas on the high partial pressure side through the molecular pores in the obstruction to the side with a low partial pressure. This effect happens with oxygen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide and water vapour too. Any gas whatsoever. It happens through all obstructions, though polymers are many orders of magnitude more porous than metals. It also happens to each gas irrespective of the partial pressures of any other gasses present (that's an important thing to remember).

If you fill an instrument with dry nitrogen there is no moisture or oxygen inside the instrument. I agree with that.
But..
If the case contains any form of polymer the differential water vapour pressure outside the case will drive the vapour into the case through the plastic, making it moist inside (0mB inside, 17.04mB outside @15C, 100%RH). With 3mm thick polymer case, like ABS, the RH inside the case will stabilise at the long term ambient RH after a month or two (dependant on polymer) regardless of the initial presence of dry nitrogen. The level of oxygen in the case will take longer to stabilise, as oxygen has a heavier molecule (RMM = 32 compared to 18 for water), but it too will eventually stabilise at atmopheric concentrations within the instrument.
The only benefit that you're getting from the nitrogen fill is a guaranteed leak tight case that won't let liquid water in. The initial drydown could be accomplished just as well by a few grains of Silica Gel - and that costs a great deal less to provide.

Ideally the case af an instrument would be electron beam welded stainless steel, using ceramic insulators for connections and StarTrek style transparent aluminium for the display window. Perfect sealing, and never any leaks.


Having got that lot off my chest, I'd just like to say that I believe you should be able to immerse all instruments for boats for long periods of time without them leaking. Any instrument that leaks isn't fit for purpose.

Regards

Richard.


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[poggy]

Re: Ray Marine, Anatoly and Hey Kim have you seen

The new waterproof membrane keys feel like normal contact keys and they are very cheap. so there is no reason for the price to increase by more than a couple of percent. We use them all the time for direct replacements of contact keys. If these are kept outside the waterproof box with a decent seal for the cabling (i.e also facing down) then it should be fine.

Look at cashpoints etc, keys feel good, not expensive and very waterproof.





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[MainlySteam]

Re: Nitrogen Fill

Found something to back you up on Richard!!

Plenty of examples of what you say in buildings where the effect is artificially driven by the addition or removal of energy on one side of the partial barrier. The partial pressure difference and the migration of moisture because of that actually physically damages the barrier. Examples that come to mind are walls of large freezer buildings where moisture tries to migrate in if the barrier is not metallic, collects as it slowly permeates the barrier, freezes and then delaminates the building fabric. The opposite which I have also seen is underfloor heating in a concrete floor slab with vinyl floorcovering laid on top. When the heating was first turned on the residual moisture in the floor slab migrated through the vinyl but the vinyl provided a partial barrier resulting in the adhesive failing from the pressure of the water behind it forming bubbles waiting its turn to permeate through the partial barrier of the vinyl.

Raytheon (now Raymarine) used a breather hole in the rear of their instruments to solve the problem but make it clear in their documentation that back of the instrument must be into a console where it is protected from water. From some of the comments I have now seen, it would seem possible that some complaints relating to Raymarine instruments is because this requirement has not been fully met or understood.

PS Richard, We have a junk rigged yacht in the berth beside us now. The wrath of he above has clearly decended upon me for my previous junk comments!

John

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[jfkal]

Well none are perfect. My Simrad also had water ingress. What really makes me furious are the spare part prices. A total rip-off at Raymarine. Stuff fails, but to pay for almost any repair just short of a new instrument might put them out of business eventually. It is up to the consumer to decide. Don't grumble--- just don't buy. The ultimate deciding factor is the end-customer.

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[pugwash]

Can Kim get a reply out of Ray?

Perhaps Kim could persuade some of his Ray Marine contacts mentioned in an earlier post to comment on some of these points. I'd like to know why my £400 instrument (tillerpilot) intended for use in storm and spray isn't even showerproof.

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[richardandtracy]

Re: Nitrogen Fill

What's wrong with Junks?

They're just a little unconventional.
And cheap.
And easy for home build.
And.. Better stop there I think.

Regards

Richard.


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[charles_reed]

Re: Ray Marine, Anatoly and Hey Kim have you seen

Ah well, condescending perhaps but not crap - I've found out the hard way that membrane keyboards all leak eventually.

You could save yourself a lot of fruitless angst, and Raymarine a lot of ill-judged criticism, if you'd try and mitigate the problem by finding a means of reducing the saturation of your instruments.
Mine live under the sprayhood, the 4000ST control head in the companionway. Result they've not given any trouble in about 30,000 miles of use.

They say banging ones' head against a brick wall is fantastic - the relief when you stop is worth it. Me I prefer to walk round the end of the wall...

Keep banging on...


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[kimhollamby]

Haven\'t gone down that route

A direct approach for response by Raymarine on such a wide spectrum of comments might be a difficult one for the company to answer if its lawyers/liability insurers caught wind of it (not because of that specific company, but because of the way things are these days). Nevertheless I will be meeting senior people from the company next Thursday and will mention comments here then.

Meantime I have done some sniffing around specifically regarding ST50 criticisms to remind myself of what was what. ST50, the very first Autohelm (later Raymarine) instrument range launched in 1989, suffered from a series of problems in terms of case sealing, temperature expansion/contraction, poor thermowelding on the screen/case joint and, on the earliest examples, button sealing. Buttons were later improved but some of the sub-contracted mouldings (the screen to case joint for example) and the sealing arrangement (a hard seal under high pressure rather than softer seals under lower pressure used on later designs) have not proven themselves to be the best over the test of time.

In my case I lost an ST50, a Tridata, back in 1993 or so because a visitor on my boat pressed the screen when he fell against the instruments...seemed okay at the time, worked fine, but it apparently broke the weld between the screen and the plastic case. First big rain storm a few days later, dead instrument.

Particularly unkind, apparently, was a not untypical regime where an owner had his black-cased ST50s out in the sun and nice and hot and did them the favour of hosing down with nice cool water. The rapid contraction of the case often broke seals and sucked water straight in. Not the owners' fault, far from it, but if you still have ST50s (or any other instruments from any manufactuer for that matter because I suspect it is a top tip for anything waterproof that gets hot) hosing down hot electronics would seem to be something to guard against if possible.

Raymarine has recently fitted a new aggressive environment test facility in Portsmouth and claims to have learnt many lessons from the ST50 range now put into effect with newer models of instrumentation, in terms of seal designs, cases and so on. Even changes such as black to grey mouldings probably help a little. I also detect a big change in the feel of the company since the management buyout, much more like the old Nautech days (albeit on a much larger scale).

Another weakness in the original ST50s were the wiring arrangements on the original narrow three pin plug; I dealt with a few faults of that nature over the years and also with really poor boatbuilder installation (network cabling was a bit of a novelty to some manufacturer electricians it seemed). Chopping cables and twisting about six pairs into a chocolate block covered up with six layers of insulation tape seemed to be a favourite.

Have subsequently run ST80s and ST60s outdoors since 1999 with no issues whatsoever. Am sad that I let a favourite instrument get out of my hands....I used an ST80 Masterview for the nav on my round Britain trip in 1999; not the easiest instrument to understand but I loved its flexibility in a geeky kind of way.

Haven't run a Raymarine tillerpilot since one of the original Autohelm models way back so not really in a position to comment from personal experience.

On the plus side, if you have Seatalk kit then you have at least opted for the VHS format of the network world. Remember all of the competing network systems from the 1990s -- B&G Network, Navico Corus, Cetrek C-Net and KVH Quadro among them? Or am I showing my age now? I remember struggling to keep up with all of the announcements at one time, let alone several bespoke protocols, but most systems now not available, which must be a bit of a pain if you want to add fully functional kit.

Here endeth some mildly disorganised observations from someone who has used quite a lot of the Autohelm/Raytheon/Raymarine range since 1990. It was post this or eat lunch so my waistline has benefited at least!

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[pugwash]

Waterproofing

Fair point but I think one is entitled to count on a high degree of waterproofing in a gadget sold for use in rain and spray (my tiller pilot cannot be mounted anywhere except in the great outdoors). Had Ray Marine offered a protective plastic jacket for it and suggested it be used in wet conditions I would certainly have bought one and understood that watertightness was doubtful. Instead I have lost one instrument and had to send the new one back to the workshop at substantial cost and lost a lot of "down" days. This isn't good enough and also it just ain't fair. I don't know much about consumer law but I'd say Ray Marine is sailing close to the ragged edge in terms of trade description etc. Moreover, it would appear that these problems have been going on for years. I feel badly let down.

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