raising, reefing, dousing without engine

[Daydream believer]

However, I removed the , full length battens and cars at the end of the first season of ownership as the car wheels were worn and the system was just too stiff. I have not missed the stack pack and fully battened sail and will probably not specify when I replace the main.

I know that this was 4 years ago, but please can you tell me what happened to the leech of the sail when you removed the full length battens

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I know that this was 4 years ago, but please can you tell me what happened to the leech of the sail when you removed the full length battens

I sent the sail to a sail makers (Owens) and they adjusted the batten pockets. I used new battens. Top batten was still full length. The sail was not recut. It is a bit full and as the sail has a flattner and Cunningham I use that a lot when wind picks up. I have wondered if the sail was converted from standard to full battens because it had the flatner.

The sail worked fine but is old and I am buying a new sail this winter.

 

[Daydream believer]

I sent the sail to a sail makers (Owens) and they adjusted the batten pockets. I used new battens. Top batten was still full length. The sail was not recut. It is a bit full and as the sail has a flattner and Cunningham I use that a lot when wind picks up. I have wondered if the sail was converted from standard to full battens because it had the flatner. The sail worked fine but is old and I am buying a new sail this winter.

...................... I wondered if the leech roach collapsed . But if the top batten stayed in that might help prevent that. Presumably by " flattener" you mean that there is a cringle a foot or so up the leech & you can pull this in to pull the boom up & the foot out a bit. Or are you referring to some other item

 

[Deleted member 36384]

...................... I wondered if the leech roach collapsed . But if the top batten stayed in that might help prevent that. Presumably by " flattener" you mean that there is a cringle a foot or so up the leech & you can pull this in to pull the boom up & the foot out a bit. Or are you referring to some other item

Yes, that’s what the flattner is the cringle up from the clew. The roach would collapse if battens were not used; they do not need to be full length.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

My cars run on a track on the front of the mast and fortunately present no such limitations. Reefing upwind is simply a matter of reefing down the headsail (so we're not too tippy over-y for the next bit), cranking the headsail in and coming hard on the wind, down tracking the main, releasing the kicker, putting on the topping lift (actually unnecessary as we have a gas strut), easing the main until it's flappy and reefing. Lazy jacks are attached to the boom so change angle with it.

In other words you can't get the whole boat in line with the wind for long, but you can get the boom in line with it, which is what counts.

You have anticipated my reply, in that all that's required is for the sail to be head-to-wind, and this can be done by heaving-to. In this condition the mainsheet will be fully free, allowing the boom/sail to align with the wind. That being said, it's only good for taking, or shaking out a reef in a sail that's already up and won't work for initially raising a sail, where the engine will be required. (You can of course raise the mainsail while still on the mooring, or hanging off a convenient pontoon, before venturing out).
The OP mentions "adjusting the sail" so one assumes that he is referring to reefing.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

>I fine reach with the genoa adjusted for close hauled and let the boom out, the back wind from the genoa holds the luff clear of the mast.

That's how we use to put reefs in the main or take them out, it's quite a lengthy process and as you said it's difficult to hold head to wind. Since the genoa is on a furler it's a different matter furling is quick so we found head to wind is fine.

I feel that, while that would work for an older boat with an IOR-inspired sailplan, involving a large, overlapping genoa and small mainsail which will be backwinded by an oversheeted genny, i don't think it would be as effective with more modern designs.

 

[RupertW]

You have anticipated my reply, in that all that's required is for the sail to be head-to-wind, and this can be done by heaving-to. In this condition the mainsheet will be fully free, allowing the boom/sail to align with the wind. That being said, it's only good for taking, or shaking out a reef in a sail that's already up and won't work for initially raising a sail, where the engine will be required. (You can of course raise the mainsail while still on the mooring, or hanging off a convenient pontoon, before venturing out).
The OP mentions "adjusting the sail" so one assumes that he is referring to reefing.

Don't agree about the need for engine to hoist the sail in the first place - just have the genoa out a bit to get a small amount of upwind forward motion and with boom loose it works just the same as taking a reef out.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

One of the Dragon sailors at the yacht club reckons he's 'sailed (different boats) all over the world and never needed to reef the main...'

I think he's either had a few masts or been very lucky with the weather.

Dragons are for racing. Racers say "Reefing is for wimps" !

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Doesn't anyone heave-to anymore ?

Yes!

 

[lw395]

Dragons are for racing. Racers say "Reefing is for wimps" !

A Dragon has a tall flexible mast, fractional rig.
This will bend and flatten the main nicely, so reefing is less neccessary than with a similar sized main on a stiff rig. It's like some dinghy rigs where reefing prevents the leech tension from bending the mast, so a reefed sail stays full. When you do reef such a rig, you need a big reef.

 

[lw395]

Don't agree about the need for engine to hoist the sail in the first place - just have the genoa out a bit to get a small amount of upwind forward motion and with boom loose it works just the same as taking a reef out.

You don't 'need' the engine to hoist the main, but using it, or at least having it available, gives you more control and makes life easier. It might sometimes mean you can safely hoist the sail earlier because you don't need so much sea room.
Certainly leaving Portsmouth, it's much easier to hoist the main with the engine, because you can virtually stop near head to wind, whatever angle the wind makes to the channel.

 

[lw395]

Don't agree about the need for engine to hoist the sail in the first place - just have the genoa out a bit to get a small amount of upwind forward motion and with boom loose it works just the same as taking a reef out.

The point was you can't heave to to completely drop the main or raise it initially, as the backed jib will have nothing to balance it.
We normally set the main before the jib, so unless we're moored when the main goes up, the engine will normally be running.

 

[_floater_]

Yes!

Doesn't anyone heave-to anymore ?

Amen.

 

[jwilson]

I've never had to put the engine on to reef, ever.

I can't believe it is would ever be necessary. If you're on the wind let the main right out, all the way, not drawing at all, then release the halyard or outhaul and do what you need to do.

If you're not on the wind, go onto the wind - reducing the genoa sail area if required.

If it's not possible to reef without the engine there is something wrong with your system.

Agree: you should be able to reef any main without using an engine.

It helps if your mainsail goes up and down easily - expensive cars are best of all, plastic slugs or in-mast boltrope the worst. If you do have either of those though a good spray of McLube intermittently greatly reduces friction. Other brands available at lower cost but lower effectiveness. Real cheapskates use Tesco or similar's cheapest furniture polish. NOT a fancy polish with wax.

The several boats I've sailed with in-mast furlers also all were able to reef underway without engine, though some definitely preferred doing this on one tack over the other.

 

[Tammany]

Mine is only small at 25ft but find a bit of tension in the mainsail when reefing helps as it uses the old fashioned roller boom method everyone hates lol. I quite like it myself but have to admit don't use it too often enough to complain about it. It's a small mainsail anyways with huge genoa.

 

[Balbas]

Mine is only small at 25ft but find a bit of tension in the mainsail when reefing helps as it uses the old fashioned roller boom method everyone hates lol. I quite like it myself but have to admit don't use it too often enough to complain about it. It's a small mainsail anyways with huge genoa.

I've got one of those too. And whilst I wouldn't choose it, it works quite well and I like it.

 

[ifoxwell]

Every boat and situation is different but this is how we do it.

 

[RupertW]

The point was you can't heave to to completely drop the main or raise it initially, as the backed jib will have nothing to balance it.
We normally set the main before the jib, so unless we're moored when the main goes up, the engine will normally be running.

As this thread has been resurrected I will belatedly reply that although I am happy to have the engine on in restricted waters there is no need for the engine to hoist the sail if you have even a little bit of clear water, or to heave to. Most boats will close reach, or at least point in a close reach even if they don't make much progress. That allows a loosely sheeted boom to be head to wind which is all you need to hoist the mainsail. In long periods of calm we often drop the mainsail to avoid chafe and wear but if the wind gets up we stop the engine, see whether there is enough wind by rolling out the genoa and if there is we hoist the main.

 

[ProDave]

The point was you can't heave to to completely drop the main or raise it initially, as the backed jib will have nothing to balance it.
.

I almost always drop the main heave to and once dropped the boat stays just as it was. It is the rudder hard over that ballances the jib and keeps the boat in a stable position.

 

[Kukri]

I almost always drop the main heave to and once dropped the boat stays just as it was. It is the rudder hard over that ballances the jib and keeps the boat in a stable position.

Yes. My old gaff cutter would heave to in F8 under a close reefed staysail only with the sail let draw and the helm hard down. It depends a bit on the boat and one may have to fiddle a bit with the sheets and the rudder.