Radio 4 wants to talk to Shipping Forecast users.

[Ru88ell]

Folks

I was randomly contacted via Twitter this morning by a researcher for BBC Radio 4 PM. They want to speak to boaty types to see what the weather is where they are during the prog from 5pm, but they want them near the coast, and I'm in Brum.

If anyone wants to volunteer can they please call or text Insaf Abbas @insaf_abbas on 07901 747663

 

[phanakapan]

I've just had my 2 minutes of fame... and if anyone was listening half an hour ago, before anyone comments- yes I know Brighton is nowhere near Dover- but they were trying to find someone in the Dover sea area and I was the nearest volunteer! I didn't say which cliffs I could see.....?

 

[Prasutigus]

Greetings. Which coast I wonder? I recently got a LW shipping forecast in the middle of the Skaggerak, 300+ miles from the UK. My Navtex is corrupted and no other forecast was available to me. That's when the LW forecast really counts. I always carry a selection of LW portable radios.
I'm highly distrustful of the BBC re the Shipping Forecast, I bet there are secret plans to axe it as being 'outdated' etc, obituaries ready prepared. They would be mistaken. I'm just about touching the bottom of S Utsire, a very tricky zone, and they got the wind about right.
Anyway, I was wondering if this PM phone-in gimmick is a ruse to trivialise it, on the way to purportedly justifying binning it?
Prasutigus

 

[phanakapan]

Hmm, it didn't feel like that to me; when talking to the researcher beforehand I certainly mentioned the error of relying on apps or mobile phone access, literally quoting the met office mobile phone forecast that warns against accidentally using out of date or cached information; and I stressed the importance of the 'live' 'fresh' aspect of the radio shipping forecast. It would be foolish and inaccurate to pretend that we don't use a variety of media and forecasts these days; including Navtex, gribs downloaded over Satphone, various forecasting apps, etc. I certainly didn't feel like I gave them ammunition with which to cancel the radio broadcast shipping forecast.

 

[Prasutigus]

Greetings, that all sounds very positive and hopefully my paranoid imaginings are unfounded..

 

[Babylon]

Hmm, it didn't feel like that to me; when talking to the researcher beforehand I certainly mentioned the error of relying on apps or mobile phone access, literally quoting the met office mobile phone forecast that warns against accidentally using out of date or cached information; and I stressed the importance of the 'live' 'fresh' aspect of the radio shipping forecast. It would be foolish and inaccurate to pretend that we don't use a variety of media and forecasts these days; including Navtex, gribs downloaded over Satphone, various forecasting apps, etc. I certainly didn't feel like I gave them ammunition with which to cancel the radio broadcast shipping forecast.

I heard you on the radio yesterday - sounded very sensible and real.

 

[Martin_J]

I've just had my 2 minutes of fame... and if anyone was listening half an hour ago, before anyone comments- yes I know Brighton is nowhere near Dover- but they were trying to find someone in the Dover sea area and I was the nearest volunteer! I didn't say which cliffs I could see.....��

I heard you as well.. I was just along the coast in Bognor Regis.. Same grey day there.. and same memories of listening to the shipping forecast daily both whilst on board and at home whilst growing up..

 

[john_morris_uk]

I was in touch with the researcher who was very enthusiastic about a live interview until I explained that whilst I would actually be at sea in the relevant shipping area at the allotted time (a bonus) there would be no phone signal either.

 

[prv]

I'm highly distrustful of the BBC re the Shipping Forecast, I bet there are secret plans to axe it as being 'outdated' etc

I don't think they're even particularly secret. Wasn't there a survey last year to find out how much it's actually used, with a view to possibly stopping it?

Pete

 

[franksingleton]

The BBC does not like the shipping forecast. They used to say the listeners switched to another channel when it came on air. Those with fairly long memories will remember when coastal reports came with every broadcast. The BBC cut the time to 3 minutes for the two daytime broadcasts. Crunch time will be when LW is discontinued.

GMDSS service provision has to enter the modern age. That means using the internet and getting information via pull rather than push means. It means Met service websites being stable, with the content quickly available via low cost communications wherever you are. It means using satellite systems so that vital safety information is readily available to all sailors wherever they are.

I wrote an article for Navigation News in January 2016. Most of the text is at http://weather.mailasail.com/Franks-Weather/Gmdss-What-Is-The-Future. Perhaps being a little conceited, I hoped this would rattle a few cages. Not surprisingly, there has been no reaction. The RYA seems blind to the situation. IMO has it's head in the sand.

With no official action, sailors are taking matters into their own hands. I use GMDSS forecasts as well as GRIBs, but usually get them online, even a few miles out to sea. That kind of service must become widely and reliably available and that means satellite technology at affordable costs using affordable equipment. If I were making longer passages than cross Channel, I would invest in satellite systems rather than use a Huawei E5330 MiFi dongle.

If yachting magazines really had the interests of sailors st heart, they would be pushing these or similar ideas. I do not claim to have the answers. Simply, maybe simplistically, I see the problems and offer one, not necessarily the optim8m solution. Being a cynic, I have to wonder why the BBC was wanting to conduct these interviews in the first place. A young reporter scratching around or some deeper motive?

 

[Prasutigus]

Greetings and great to hear your expert views Frank. (I heard your talk at the CA, but a lot of it went over my head..)

Unfortunately your comments about BBC radio ring all too true...

 

[franksingleton]

Greetings and great to hear your expert views Frank. (I heard your talk at the CA, but a lot of it went over my head..)

Unfortunately your comments about BBC radio ring all too true...

I know. I remember when LW carried radio 2. The then controller, Jimmy Kingsbury, tried then to ditch coastal reports totally. He said that as a one time master mariner, he saw no purpose in them.

Sorry my talk went over your head. Clearly, I failed!

 

[JumbleDuck]

GMDSS service provision has to enter the modern age. That means using the internet and getting information via pull rather than push means. It means Met service websites being stable, with the content quickly available via low cost communications wherever you are. It means using satellite systems so that vital safety information is readily available to all sailors wherever they are.

Do I correctly read that as meaning "everyone should be using mailasail"?

 

[Prasutigus]

...

Sorry my talk went over your head. Clearly, I failed!

I wouldn't say that at all.. although we might have won the simultaneous beard-stroking olympics

 

[franksingleton]

Do I correctly read that as meaning "everyone should be using mailasail"?

Oh! A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. No, I am just being realistic. Out of contact with terrestrial based communications, given the obsolescent nature of HF/SSB, NAVTEX, VHF, what other options are there? Although kindly sponsored by MailASail, I am under no obligation to advertise their services and do not. In fact, my long standing advocacy to use conventional GMDSS service, including HF/SSB where available is directly contrary to their interests.

But, times are changing. I see the gradual decline of the use of conventional marine radio. That may be sad for many of us but is the reality. One of my worries is that insufficient (i.e. no) thought is being given to the distribution of GMDSS information. The ever evolving internet is being used increasingly and not surprisingly. Bright young people are seeing advertising opportunities in marine forecasts to the detriment of safety. Only this year, Meteo France blocked the use of tablets to get marine forecasts. You had to use a dreadful app. After, presumably, many complaints (including mine) they re-established the status quo. On the UK Met Office site, you have to hunt for their "mobile" marine weather forecasts (direct links are on my site). Several countries to my direct knowledge have changed their marine weather pages at no notice. Someone at sea suddenly has no access to pages that have moved or just disappeared.

It is high time that IMO, RYA, CA and their international counterparts got off their respective backsides, and saw what is happening on the water. We already have such as MeteoConsult providing marine services that are not fit for purpose. Significant use of those and governments will see no need to finance GMDSS services. Life st sea will become more dangerous as a result. My sailing days are numbered, we are living on borrowed time but I do worry about the future of vital safety services. It will not be a Titanic. It could be a fleet of leisure sailors insufficiently warned and unprepared. Maybe over-dramatic. I hope so but, who knows.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Oh! A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Not at all. It's just that I find it consistently hard to work out what it is you want. Could you possibly explain it, in nice short friendly words? As far as I can see, we have better access to forecasts and weather data than ever before; I'm about to go off for a weekend in the Clyde, during which I shall have the shipping and inshore waters forecasts on the BBC and every two hours from the CG plus online access to XCWeather, Windguru, the Met Office and more. Presumably I could also get GRIB files if I wanted and do interesting things with them. I can get things like this

with trivial ease. Twenty years ago I was copying down the shipping forecast and weather reports onto a specially printed map (I am happy to say that I found a pad of them in a second-hand shop recently). By the way, I don't understand what you mean by "GMDSS services" - do you mean Navtex? I am genuinely baffled.

On the UK Met Office site, you have to hunt for their "mobile" marine weather forecasts (direct links are on my site).

I use these: http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/marine-printable

 

[franksingleton]

Not at all. It's just that I find it consistently hard to work out what it is you want. Could you possibly explain it, in nice short friendly words? As far as I can see, we have better access to forecasts and weather data than ever before; I'm about to go off for a weekend in the Clyde, during which I shall have the shipping and inshore waters forecasts on the BBC and every two hours from the CG plus online access to XCWeather, Windguru, the Met Office and more. Presumably I could also get GRIB files if I wanted and do interesting things with them. I can get things like this. …………….

First, LW will cease at some time or other. The BBC would like to drop it now and would, I believe, do so we're it not for the lunatic fringe who witter on about our heritage. Given the existence of NAVTEX they could do so now with good reason if they had the wit and courage.

Internet access is great and I use it a great deal but it is not an operational service in the GMDSS sense. This year in France, I opened up my tablet and went to the Meteo France website to get an inshore forecast. All I got was advice to get an app. I did so and got yesterday’s forecast. It was slow. For someone at sea it would have been a serious problem. Meteo France VHF broadcasts are few and far between. Their synthesised voice is very difficult for a non-French speaker, even with my long experience and some French.

When LW goes, how many leisure sailors will use NAVTEX with all its problems? Over the past year there have been many complaints about HMCG broadcasts not being received. We will, I do so myself, increasingly use the internet. With that trend how will MCA argue for funds to continue their weather broadcasts?

You use the printable Met Office texts. If your internet access is limited, you may want to use the Saildocs email text retrieval service but that will not work with the printable texts. It will work with the mobile service. That is why my site give these and not the printable versions.

You talk about XCWeather, WindGuru and GRIBs. These are great but are not safety services and should not be used as such. Similarly for the much used Meteo Consult.

HF/SSB including NAVTEX is 1950s technology. It is not suited to current data volumes/speeds. It cannot be easy to maintain obsolete hardware. Where is son of NAVTEX?

I could go on and my page that I referred to is more complete. You may be OK in the Clyde. Many in many other areas will not. Marine authorities should be giving thought to the future. I have seen no evidence that they are. My suggestion is to make use of the internet - partly because that is what many of us do now. BUT the service has to be reliable. Users must be sure that they can get what they want, wherever they want it. The world is bigger than the `Clyde or the Solent.


Perhaps, I do not really know what I want - except that I am aware of current problems and see no sign that these are being addressed. Does that help explain my concerns?

 

[franksingleton]

I realise that was an overlong reply to Jumble Duck. This is a brief version.

Radio has had its day as a means of distributing MSI. The future is digital. In any case, radio was never reliable.

Sailors are recognising that and are going digital. The internet is uncontrolled. Whilst we cannot stop the proliferation of westher sites of varying value, it should be possible to design and implement a reliable, robust source of MSI online. We need sites that do not chop and change - or only slowly with adequate warning and re-routeing. We need co-ordination in the digital world comparable to that in the analogue world. I see no recognition by marine authorities that the future of MSI Is being considered in an increasingly digital world.

Is that clearer?

 

[JumbleDuck]

First, LW will cease at some time or other. ... Does that help explain my concerns?

I realise that was an overlong reply to Jumble Duck. This is a brief version....
Is that clearer?

Sorry, no.

There's absolutely nothing personal about it, but I simply do not understand what the problem is. Yes, I can see it may be frustrating that Méteo France have reorganised their website, bust surely one of the advantages of the the internet is that we can use search functions - or Google - instead of depending on the information being in the same place every time. I found the Met Office printable list (what sort of service is Saildocs if it cannot cope with pages of text?) by googling it.

You said in an earlier message that you feared an imminent disaster to a group of overwhelmed sailing vessels. Surely the weather information available to the competitors this year in the run up to, immediately before and during the Fastnet, Round the Island, Jester Challenge, Ostar (cont p94) were better than ever before? Who is currently or imminently worse off for weather information than they were twenty years ago?

Perhaps I'm being obtuse, and if so I apologise unreservedly.

 

[franksingleton]

Sorry, no.

There's absolutely nothing personal about it, but I simply do not understand what the problem is. Yes, I can see it may be frustrating that Méteo France have reorganised their website, bust surely one of the advantages of the the internet is that we can use search functions - or Google - instead of depending on the information being in the same place every time. I found the Met Office printable list (what sort of service is Saildocs if it cannot cope with pages of text?) by googling it.

You said in an earlier message that you feared an imminent disaster to a group of overwhelmed sailing vessels. Surely the weather information available to the competitors this year in the run up to, immediately before and during the Fastnet, Round the Island, Jester Challenge, Ostar (cont p94) were better than ever before? Who is currently or imminently worse off for weather information than they were twenty years ago?

Perhaps I'm being obtuse, and if so I apologise unreservedly.

I quoted Meteo France because that is my recent experience. The Met Office has made unannonced changes without due regard to the real sailing world. Ask them to explain why there are three pades on their site where you can find the shipping forecast? The Germans changed their site, so have the Spanish. I could go on.

Yes, there is Google. Have you never been in an area where browsing the internet was not possible? What does it cost to browse over a satellite phone?

Saildocs is a Sailmail free service designed for situations where you can get email but not browse or not browse at an acceptable cost. It takes a webpage of many kB or mB, strips out the HTML and sends you the text in a 2 or 3 kB file.

With no LW, unless you rely on NAVTEX (1950s technology), where do you get UK GMDSS forecasts? VHF reception even around our coasts is not reliable. How long can we still have any analogue radio? How long will VHF continue? 1960s technology.

The world is going digital. To many of us the internet has already become the dr facto source of GMDSS information. It may well become the official source in due course. Experience, in my case in several countries, shows that we cannot rely at present on the internet in the same way that we do (despite its warts) on our current VHF, NAVTEX, HF/MF/SSB.

How many sailors, even now, go to sea on the basis of purely automated forecasts without seeing GMDSS texts. Extrapolate to an unregulated digital meteorological/GMDSS service and only a disaster would have a similar result as the Titanic. I am looking at the future. You are looking at a far from perfect present. I do not sail in your part of the world but am well aware of problems around the Hebrides area with forecast reception. The only sure way there to get forecasts is the internet via a satellite system. Put yourself in the position of using satellite technology to get a forecast that is no longer at that address. Google?

I am looking for and not seeing any forward thinking by marine authorities. Meanwhile, we muddle on scratching around for information vital to safety at sea. Where is a digital SOLAS? Not yet on the horizon. We