Johnboy2004
New member
can anyone recommend a radar system suitable for a 22 ft yacht,
thanks
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thanks
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RADAR
- Thread starter Johnboy2004
- Start date
sailorman
Well-known member
y do u need radar ?
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Johnboy2004
New member
hi i would like to have radar, if caught out crossing the channel in heavy fog.
it would be handy.
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it would be handy.
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philip_stevens
Active member
Have a look at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.mesltd.co.uk/Products/system/index.htm>http://www.mesltd.co.uk/Products/system/index.htm</A> and go to Radar, and then have a look at the JRC R1000 LCD Radar
Big enough for a 22footer, and with a very small radome.
<hr width=100% size=1>regards,
Philip
Big enough for a 22footer, and with a very small radome.
<hr width=100% size=1>regards,
Philip
Johnboy2004
New member
do i actually need a radar or could i get away without it?
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Johnboy2004
New member
do i actually need a radar or could i get away without it?
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LadyInBed
Well-known member
I sailed a 22 footer cross channel for many years without radar, caught in fog 3 or 4 times which is VERY hairy. The reason radar wasn’t fitted was price, now that the JRC is reasonably priced I wouldn’t be without it.
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Johnboy2004
New member
does the jrc work well? is it easy to use? the english channel is very busy alright,
if i stayed away from the shipping lanes would that be enough?
its still kinda pricey..... from the articles that i read on radar it seems like its not always accurate
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if i stayed away from the shipping lanes would that be enough?
its still kinda pricey..... from the articles that i read on radar it seems like its not always accurate
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sailorman
Well-known member
if crossing the channel u would find it Ni impossible to not enter shipping lanes!
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chriscallender
Active member
False sense of security?
The article in this months PBO on the limitations of radar was very interesting... I'm surprised there hasn't been some discussion of it on here - but the long and short of it was that because of the speed differential between the large shipping and a small yacht, and the margin of error in taking a bearing off radar, means that if you make contact at a range of 6 miles on radar (and then some reasonable assumptions about how long it takes to figure a course of action), it is already too late to work out a course of action which guarantees that there is no risk of a collision. It made scary reading.
The solution would be less of a difference in speed, ie ships reduce speed in fog which would give the yacht time to get out the way however realistically that is never going to happen I am afraid. Or more accurate radar to reduce the error in bearing, however that costs $$$ more than a JRC set, to get a narrower beam and north up display with a fast updated heading input from a gyro or flux gate compass.
I have a JRC 1000 radar on a 28 footer, of course radar has other uses than just crossing the shipping lanes, and it can still be used to reduce the probabilty of a collision compared with not having radar, still I personally find it very frightenining that even if the radar is used properly, it cannot be guaranteed to help in a collision avoidance.
Anyway I recommend reading the article, its in this months PBO.
Chris
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The article in this months PBO on the limitations of radar was very interesting... I'm surprised there hasn't been some discussion of it on here - but the long and short of it was that because of the speed differential between the large shipping and a small yacht, and the margin of error in taking a bearing off radar, means that if you make contact at a range of 6 miles on radar (and then some reasonable assumptions about how long it takes to figure a course of action), it is already too late to work out a course of action which guarantees that there is no risk of a collision. It made scary reading.
The solution would be less of a difference in speed, ie ships reduce speed in fog which would give the yacht time to get out the way however realistically that is never going to happen I am afraid. Or more accurate radar to reduce the error in bearing, however that costs $$$ more than a JRC set, to get a narrower beam and north up display with a fast updated heading input from a gyro or flux gate compass.
I have a JRC 1000 radar on a 28 footer, of course radar has other uses than just crossing the shipping lanes, and it can still be used to reduce the probabilty of a collision compared with not having radar, still I personally find it very frightenining that even if the radar is used properly, it cannot be guaranteed to help in a collision avoidance.
Anyway I recommend reading the article, its in this months PBO.
Chris
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Koeketiene
Well-known member
It depends...
What are you looking for? A security blanket? Or can/could you actually plot a CPA?
It concerns me that after the scare stories in the recent yachting mags a lot of people are now considering the purchase of a RADAR; yet IMHO if there is anything the recent story shows, it's that RADAR actually contributed to the accident. Unable to make good use of the instrument, the yacht's skipper took wrong decisions. If he had been unaware of the approaching container ship and just maintained course & speed the container ship would have passed astern of him.
If you are willing to make the investment and undertake necessary training - by all means go for it! It will be a useful tool & safety feature. Not just in fog, but also at night.
If it's just fog in mid Channel that worries you - don't bother with it. You're better of listening to weather forecasts. And not just the UK ones; it's well worth picking up French weather terminology - they do not always agree. Then make an informed decision.
<hr width=100% size=1>Experience is a good teacher, but she sends in terrific bills.
What are you looking for? A security blanket? Or can/could you actually plot a CPA?
It concerns me that after the scare stories in the recent yachting mags a lot of people are now considering the purchase of a RADAR; yet IMHO if there is anything the recent story shows, it's that RADAR actually contributed to the accident. Unable to make good use of the instrument, the yacht's skipper took wrong decisions. If he had been unaware of the approaching container ship and just maintained course & speed the container ship would have passed astern of him.
If you are willing to make the investment and undertake necessary training - by all means go for it! It will be a useful tool & safety feature. Not just in fog, but also at night.
If it's just fog in mid Channel that worries you - don't bother with it. You're better of listening to weather forecasts. And not just the UK ones; it's well worth picking up French weather terminology - they do not always agree. Then make an informed decision.
<hr width=100% size=1>Experience is a good teacher, but she sends in terrific bills.
alan
Active member
I have to say after reading the replies and the recent articles in PBO that if I was going to buy a radar I would certainly get one with ARPA/MARPA; the thought of having to try and plot two or three ships movements and calculate CPAs whilst steering the boat and keeping a lookout and sounding the fog horn gives me nightmares (OK, if you are fully crewed you can delgate some of those tasks). Whilst radar can be used for other things than collision avoidance, I would say that it is really in fog in shipping lanes that it can be "essential" but only if you know how to use it and have the time to use it properly ......... hence for me ARPA would be an essential feature in my list of requirements.
Alan.
Nettuno, Italy.
P.S. Fortunately we only rarely get fog here .................
<hr width=100% size=1>Alan Cloke
Alan.
Nettuno, Italy.
P.S. Fortunately we only rarely get fog here .................
<hr width=100% size=1>Alan Cloke
Oldhand
New member
I would humbly suggest you may have problems installing a radar on a 22' yacht.
Firstly have you looked at your battery capacity in relation to the current draw of a radar? Do you have an inboard engine and good charging system that could be used if your battery capacity is marginal and would you be prepared to run the engine in order to run the radar if necessary?
Secondly, where would you envisage mounting the radome? I think there are 2 choices, either on the front of the mast or on a dedicated pole on the stern. Either way it should be mounted high enough to get at least a 6 mile line of sight and be well above head hight of any crew when standing. On a small yacht whe weight and windage of the radome is likely to to make an appreciable differnece to the yacht's righting moment and you need to seriously consider this aspect.
I would not wish to discourage you form having a radar but you may be disappointed with the performance of units with very small radomes. Due to a small antenna resulting in a wide azimuth beam width, targets in the same vicinity tend to merge into one echo and target bearing accuracy is compromised. This can be aggravated by a lack of consistancy in you boat's heading, which in a seaway is likely to be worse with a small yacht than a larger one.
I don't know the charecteristics of your yacht but unless it is more of a motor-sailer design rather than an sailing yacht, I think you may be a tad small for a sensible radar installation. You may wish to consider a C.A.R.D. radar detector which is better than nothing at all.
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Firstly have you looked at your battery capacity in relation to the current draw of a radar? Do you have an inboard engine and good charging system that could be used if your battery capacity is marginal and would you be prepared to run the engine in order to run the radar if necessary?
Secondly, where would you envisage mounting the radome? I think there are 2 choices, either on the front of the mast or on a dedicated pole on the stern. Either way it should be mounted high enough to get at least a 6 mile line of sight and be well above head hight of any crew when standing. On a small yacht whe weight and windage of the radome is likely to to make an appreciable differnece to the yacht's righting moment and you need to seriously consider this aspect.
I would not wish to discourage you form having a radar but you may be disappointed with the performance of units with very small radomes. Due to a small antenna resulting in a wide azimuth beam width, targets in the same vicinity tend to merge into one echo and target bearing accuracy is compromised. This can be aggravated by a lack of consistancy in you boat's heading, which in a seaway is likely to be worse with a small yacht than a larger one.
I don't know the charecteristics of your yacht but unless it is more of a motor-sailer design rather than an sailing yacht, I think you may be a tad small for a sensible radar installation. You may wish to consider a C.A.R.D. radar detector which is better than nothing at all.
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sailorman
Well-known member
a simple hand-bearing compass in clear weather takes some beating, especiallty the "autohelm personal compass" its very good for quickly tracking a number of targets
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beneteau_305_553
New member
I have the Furuno 1522 which has been excellent. Its more expensive than the jrc 1000 but I think worth it. It has a 2.2 kw transmitter for long range but also has automatic standby so only draws 8 W. It also has the guardwatch function so it sounds an alarm when a signal is recieved in the zone you set. The radome weighs only 2.2 kg
I would also strongly recomend a radar reflector so the ships have a chance to see you. I have had commercial ships change course to pass astern of me by 1/4 mile. You can see it on the radar trail but visually from the cockpit it seems they are on a collision course.
I have had yachts pass close to me that have been invisible to my radar. They have not had refectors.
<hr width=100% size=1>Richard
I would also strongly recomend a radar reflector so the ships have a chance to see you. I have had commercial ships change course to pass astern of me by 1/4 mile. You can see it on the radar trail but visually from the cockpit it seems they are on a collision course.
I have had yachts pass close to me that have been invisible to my radar. They have not had refectors.
<hr width=100% size=1>Richard
LadyInBed
Well-known member
If you get radar, go into it with a clear idea of what you want it to do for you. At one end of the scale it will tell you a ship is out there, it’s approximate relative direction and it’s distance. The other end it keeps track of several targets and tell you how close they will pass to you. I went for the former, because that’s what I wanted when viz was down.
Practising with it in good viz will give you a measure of confidence when using it in bad viz. Learning how to adjust the Gain, Rain and Sea state for best results on different ranges will make it a more useful tool and it will pick up small channel stick markers, areas of rain and some boats without radar reflectors!
The JRC radome isn't heavy and it doesn’t need to be way up the mast, on a small boat I would put it just below the height of the lower stays. As for power consumption, if you are using it in earnest in fog, then it’s not a bad idea to have the engine running anyway.
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Practising with it in good viz will give you a measure of confidence when using it in bad viz. Learning how to adjust the Gain, Rain and Sea state for best results on different ranges will make it a more useful tool and it will pick up small channel stick markers, areas of rain and some boats without radar reflectors!
The JRC radome isn't heavy and it doesn’t need to be way up the mast, on a small boat I would put it just below the height of the lower stays. As for power consumption, if you are using it in earnest in fog, then it’s not a bad idea to have the engine running anyway.
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