Radar used or not?

[matt1]

I’ve just started using radar for the first time and only really fitted it as I want to do some extended singlehanded sailing and want to use radar guard zones in order to wake me up in the event of coming close to other boats. To be honest I wouldn’t have fitted it absent the above requirement.

A few observations, based on a couple of uses so far:

1) locally (busySolent) I’ve seen AIS targets quite delayed compared to the radar position, which is more accurate. Interesting and thought provoking next time I’m in fog. I didn’t realise AIS was so time lagged until I had radar

2) I’ve seen whitelink and condor fast car ferries both without displaying AIS, so don’t just assume it’s fishing vessels that forget to TX or actively switch their AIS off

3) As others say, chart overly is very intuitive esp combined with AIS

4) A small Cornish Crabber with an outboard on the transom gave a nice echo. A 40+ race boat with carbon mast gave no echo in the same conditions. I’d previously thought of stowing my outboard in the lazarette when offshore, rather than in the lazarette. I will now leave it mounted on the pushpit as it may give a better return than my radar reflector!

5) it was kind of fun seeing when a shower was going to hit me when I’m weather mode

 

[dunedin]

Looking at the web cam yesterday while working .

I was aware of how many boats had a radar then wondered should I spend £2-4k to get one but then I though how ofter would I actually use it.

How often do people actually use it?

My sailing area is the Clyde and the West coast.

For the West side of Scotland I would say it is a rarely used luxury.

However, I fitted radar before doing a northern North Sea crossing in April, as fog seems to be more prevalent on the East coast, and was VERY grateful to have it when sailing the Baltic in April and May (dense fog turning to sun mid morning).

Used radar last year round Mingulay and Barra Head in 100m vis - but didn’t find any vessels on radar, as there weren’t any around. And round the MoK in July, surprisingly - when was quite glad of it. But your call on priorities vs cash.

 

[LadyInBed]

My radar gets occasional use - fog and approaching rain squalls mainly. It's not the big ships that you need it for, as they have ais, but the little mobos that go out fishing in fog!

 

[Wansworth]

Was on watch but as helmsman on a dredger whilst the mate spent his time with his head in the radar,Ihadto call him out as a small craft was close by,he hadn’t picked it up amongst the clutter

 

[lustyd]

For the West side of Scotland I would say it is a rarely used luxury.

Then either you've never sailed the west coast of Scotland or you're never out after dark. Scotland is the perfect place for radar, with steep mountains either side of narrow yet extremely deep lochs. On a dark and cloudy night with no fog and no other boats, radar might be the best way to make your way up a loch that has no street lights or houses on the shores. I've been there, and GPS doesn't quite cut it in terms of confidence at 6kt under sail in pitch black!
The major consideration for me would be whether it can be fitted near the helm. Radar is utterly pointless at the chart table when short handed, and only slightly more useful with a full crew. Modern integrated radar on an MFD at the helm though will give you info on weather coming along, show you rocks, boats and other hazards, and for that you need to actually see it while helming. I removed mine from the chart table and don't miss it, but plan to fit an Ethernet one which will be at the helm and chart table to give a little bit more info.

Is it worth the thousands of pounds? Probably not if you're not rich or a very active sailor. Is it a fun and useful thing to have? Yes.

 

[pandos]

I had radar and used it ocassionally in bad visibility and at night in the past.

Last year it gave up the ghost despite 500 euros of repairs and a new cable...

I spent a terrible day motoring in fog/mist and really missed it...my cruising was more restrained after that...(I also had auto pilot issues)

A new radar was top of my shopping list this year...followed by an AIS transceiver and Echomax xs...

I bought a lightly used one for a fraction of the cost of new...

Looking forward to the security of having some reliable information about what might be hiding in the fog...

Mine is at the chart table but visible from the cockpit as is one of my plotters and the autopilot controls are reachable from the same spot so it is very easy to sit outside to hear what is going on and see where you are and what may be ahead...

 

[RichardS]

That's rather a stretch of imagination. Even for you.

My imagination is limitless.

Richard

 

[RichardS]

Yeah, radar is heaps ahead of AIS.

Also heaps ahead in terms of cost and installation hassle.

Richard

 

[mrangry]

Looking at the web cam yesterday while working .

I was aware of how many boats had a radar then wondered should I spend £2-4k to get one but then I though how ofter would I actually use it.

How often do people actually use it?

My sailing area is the Clyde and the West coast.

I also sail the Clyde and west coast and have often thought it would be a nice thing to have. But like yourself I haven't been able to justify the cost when weighted against a need. There are so many things on boats that we would love to have but it all comes down to priorities and the type of sailing you intend to do.

 

[Neeves]

We don't have fog, or poor visibility due to mist/fog - but do have radar and use it, it is active, every time we are offshore Tasman Sea, Bass Strait, Southern Ocean.

We do not have AIS, because visibility is good and if you miss a large commercial ship you are either blind or not keeping watch - a bit more complex than that - but hopefully you get the idea.

Radar is invaluable for thunderstorms, you can track them and at least try to sail between the cells. We have lots of small runabouts who fish quite far offshore - they do not carry AIS, their nav lights are commonly inadequate - radar does pick them up. Radar will pick up a row of buoys for lobster pots, though sometimes you are on top of them when you, the operative, notices .

At close quarters radar indicates exactly how far you are from 'something' - you know you are beyond the exclusion zone dictated by a naval vessel discharging ammunition - and can be confident when the OIC challenges you. You know exactly how far you are from shore or other anchored vessels. We have Simrad's Broadband and can pick up out own bowsprit, buoys ahead of us and our dinghy hanging off the transom.

If we were based in HK, Singapore Straits or the English Channel - we would have AIS. If your commercial traffic is low numbers but large I'm not sure what AIS will tell you that you will not be able to see by eyesight and enhance it a bit with a pair of binoculars.

I assume you will have a chart plotter.

Things may have changed but - Your choice of radar is commonly dictated by your chartplotter. You will almost certainly need to buy the radar from the same manufacturer as your chart plotter (or buy a new chart plotter). AIS commonly will be compatible with any chart plotter. Radar needs a decent location for the scanner - AIS is, usually, easier to instal. Radar commonly has a higher power consumption than AIS. Radar should be used on the assumption other vessels cannot see you, AIS, if you transmit, should also be used on the same assumption - though other vessels may have taken notice of your transmission and position/speed etc.

Nothing is perfect - you unfortunately need to decide for yourself - what is important to you. Unless you buy both - you will need to make compromises, and being a yacht - one will involve money!

You should be able to instal both or either yourself.

Jonathan

 

[Oily Rag]

I use radar for all of the above.

But also when my crazy alternator boost system is about to boil the batteries. The extra current draw does the job just nicely!

 

[dragoon]

Many years ago, we went into a fog bank just West of Brighton. This was in the early days of GPS and we had a handheld GPS which ate batteries. We lost power to the GPS after about 30 minutes, and we had no radar. We reduced to a couple of knots or less and had lookout on the front of the boat. At some point a fishing boat passed us a few metres ahead with no warning. I also remember that without watching the compass, we managed to turn 180 degrees through pure accident. Radar and GPS proved essential in such conditions. We left the fog bank after a couple of hours - outside of the fog it was a glorious day. So, yes, I do have radar on board these days, but it's hardly ever used.

 

[pandos]

Many years ago, we went into a fog bank just West of Brighton. This was in the early days of GPS and we had a handheld GPS which ate batteries. We lost power to the GPS after about 30 minutes, and we had no radar. We reduced to a couple of knots or less and had lookout on the front of the boat. At some point a fishing boat passed us a few metres ahead with no warning. I also remember that without watching the compass, we managed to turn 180 degrees through pure accident. Radar and GPS proved essential in such conditions. We left the fog bank after a couple of hours - outside of the fog it was a glorious day. So, yes, I do have radar on board these days, but it's hardly ever used.

I had the exact same experience, in Fog..... wife at the wheel, instructions ..."pass the red buoy on the right hand side"... ten minutes later whilst I am trying to get the gps and Radar sorted out (we had a short in the electrics) I ask did we pass the Buoy..."Yes We passed both of them"... at that point radar and plotter come back to life displaying horse shaped course around Buoy... about 100m from shore, never forgot that experience and the realisation that it was possible to become so preoccupied in fog that you can turn 180 degrees without knowing it...(obviously looking at a compass and believing it would fix this),

the very same thing happened on a racing boat a few years later with a very experienced crew who began to question the accuracy of the compass given their belief that we were holding a steady course... (I knew better... and after some persuasion we tacked and beat off in a different direction amid grumblings, until we found a marker Buoy to tell us that we had just re-entered the channel...)

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

I think that the radar/chart overlay is one of the easiest ways of making sense of radar images. As others have said, it takes practise, but it's worth it.

Regardless, radar isn't foolproof. I well recall coming out of Dover early one morning to find myself in thick fog. With the radar on, I crawled along for a while. Then I saw a little dinghy pass close by, with several guys fishing. It hadn't registered on the radar, and a few metres the wrong way and I'd have run them over. Whatever is in these people's heads to go out in a tiny dinghy in thick fog?

Had a similar experience while crewing on a boat (slowly) entering Baiona in a dense fog. We had a lookout in the bow, one crew monitoring AIS and myself watching the radar. It was early on a Sunday morning and we found that we were encountering a horde of small angling boats coming out, none of which had AIS, and only some of which gave any return on radar, but worst of all was a tiny dot which appeared on the screen and approached on a collision course so fast that I barely had time to shout to the helm that we had something dead ahead. Mercifully, what materialised as a large fast moving rib managed to avoid us (on the port side) by about three metres!

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

It should be noted that if you have a radar you are obliged to use it at night and in bad visibility:
Rule 5 states: Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper lookout by sight and hearing as well as by ALL AVAILABLE MEANS appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

 

[Babylon]

Interesting thread - especially as in recent years everyone's been raving about AIS instead of radar.

My view is different. I've only ever actually needed to use AIS as an aid when crossing shipping lanes, otherwise it's normally just an irrelevant clutter of harmless pleasure yachts etc in plain visual sight. Whereas radar gives me the comfort of being able to see everything that's actually there in fog or limited visibility, which I've needed to do a handful of times over the years

Now the old chart-plotter can't display the AIS signal any more (boring technical reason which can't be resolved) but I'm not going to spend any money on replacing it. Happy to just sail with paper charts, with old chart-plotter, with HH GPS as a backup, and with radar.... which, if the CP goes down close to land will at least also give me a real-time picture of whereabouts the hard bits are.

 

[dunedin]

Then either you've never sailed the west coast of Scotland or you're never out after dark. Scotland is the perfect place for radar, with steep mountains either side of narrow yet extremely deep lochs. On a dark and cloudy night with no fog and no other boats, radar might be the best way to make your way up a loch that has no street lights or houses on the shores. I've been there, and GPS doesn't quite cut it in terms of confidence at 6kt under sail in pitch black!

Aye, I‘ve only done a wee bit of boating on the west coast - not many decades yet, and only Sanda to Harris so far this year, but still time to learn. Though agree not much in the pitch dark, as barely gets dark in North West in summer, allowing for nautical twighlight (big shock sailing in Caribbean latitudes!)

Each to their own, but personally I would never use radar as primary navigation tool in Scottish waters in the dark. Hardly likely to see the low and just submerged rocks that are the biggest dangers.
I would stick to human pilotage (with CCC guides etc) and GPS based devices for navigating in daylight or dark - generally at least two independent devices if anywhere tricky, Navionics on plotter and Antares or most detailed Admiralty on iPad.
Unless the grey funnel line are playing their games nearby (as last month), never had any issues with GPS signal in Scottish Lochs - and so sensitive the track on the way out is often differentiated from the way in, as GPS is positioned on foaming so 2.5m gap.
Got a good modern radar, which is excellent, but for me it is for the very rare fog here - not navigation.

 

[Daverw]

We fitted ours 2 years ago, switch it on most times out as it both good to practice and I like to play, current draw so low 150mw and instant on / off so no downside

 

[HenrikH]

We fitted ours 2 years ago, switch it on most times out as it both good to practice and I like to play, current draw so low 150mw and instant on / off so no downside

To me, two major downsides are the visual and the performace. The dome looks like a birds nest and disturbes the air flow around the sails. AIS us used by almost all steel ships - the ones that are hard to hit.

 

[Graham376]

How often do people actually use it?
My sailing area is the Clyde and the West coast.

Have had radar on 3 boats and used it a lot, particularly a few years ago when we did plenty of night passages. When tuned well, it will even pick up danbuoys on damp foggy days and we're quite happy to set off in fog, when we wouldn't without radar. AIS only picks up vessels transmitting and many aren't, neither are rocks and buoys.