Quiet, innit? Decline in boating?Parallels/extention to manufacturing decline?

[deuc02]

But I think that Seajets attitude is part of the issue for new people coming to sailing. (Not him personally you understand)

There are a large group of established sailors who did it the Seajet way, start small in 1960's / 1970's boats. For whatever reason some stayed there.

Now when a new victim starts saying they have £50k to spend on boat for family or as couple, what is the standard response? Get a £2k boat and learn, don't waste your money. If they take the advice will it meet SWMBO's needs and if they don't there will always be someone saying my £2k boat built by Noah proves that I'm a better sailor than you as you don't understand it.

This applies to most technical sports, the whole "All the gear, No idea" attitude.

Link that to the perception of older members of clubs by new younger recruits (who expect to deal with an organisation on the basis of we pay you money, you provide us service) and it makes a less attractive proposition than many other less traditional activities.

Totolly agree with the above. Sailing is filled with old school class society ideals. Blue/Red Ensign, Yacht club membership (if I want to be interviewed by idiots I'll go for a job at a call centre). Big boat/small boat. AWB/MAB. etc...

These days I'm relatively lucky enough to sail quite a big boat. Totally enjoy it and whenever we have new/inexperienced crew then we take the time. End result is everyone has a good time. One of our regular crew is carp but mixes the best Martini on the South Coast. Always welcome aboard (Seajet - thats if the fridge doesn't bite him)

So back to the original thread. Decline of sailing. Cost, Snobbery (read the threads on here about Sunsail) declining economy, bigots within sailing (not going to say sport). Previous boat was a mobo and can honestly say that the mobo crew are are much better at intermingling with each other and having a good time. Check out Lisilou or JFM's threads

 

[fergie_mac66]

Boating decline

....meanwhile , back from work( well just enough for (fish and chips) and I'm looking at a potty hanging from a fan.

Getting people started into harbours now!Is what i am talking about . To prevent what has happened to manufacturing centers and shopping centers spreading to boating centers, that is what I started the thread about.

Starting newcomers in reasonable safety ( not H&S and RCD panic mode ) in a day boat,trailer sailor, 22 footer, 35 footer or indeed a lottery milllyonair head in a skippered 70 footer , is what is needed or.... in a few years there will be a few Monaco like centers with peeps gazing on from the shore. The harbours will be silted up and full of half sunk boats (like the canals were). I think I possibly exaggerate but... 20/30 years years ago few people would have foreseen shopping centers full of shops to let, and vast swathes of derelict heavy industrial sites . 30 or so years ago the canals had a death knell sounded and were really only,only, just saved by a very ,very, few enthusiasts.I am not sure the current boating fraternity has the requisite number of young fit enthusiasts with the required skills to save many small harbours. The diversity of vessels in any harbour from the 1930 classic to the modern wide beam racer , even the little oppy or triumph herald complete with mast and May at the helm is what make visiting harbours interesting. If any more are allowed to decline and become derelict, the people of this country will lose a lot more that another percentage of GDP. The current generation do not have the nouse that previous generations have had and by time they get the nouse they will be in their sixties and the harbours will have been battered by the current storms that are surrounding us .

The industrial revolution , and in particular the Victorians built huge amounts of our infrastructure, a lot of which has gone , train lines canals, I hope that future generations don't curse us for letting more go.

 

[Tranona]

....meanwhile , back from work( well just enough for (fish and chips) and I'm looking at a potty hanging from a fan.

Getting people started into harbours now!Is what i am talking about . To prevent what has happened to manufacturing centers and shopping centers spreading to boating centers, that is what I started the thread about.

Starting newcomers in reasonable safety ( not H&S and RCD panic mode ) in a day boat,trailer sailor, 22 footer, 35 footer or indeed a lottery milllyonair head in a skippered 70 footer , is what is needed or.... in a few years there will be a few Monaco like centers with peeps gazing on from the shore. The harbours will be silted up and full of half sunk boats (like the canals were). I think I possibly exaggerate but... 20/30 years years ago few people would have foreseen shopping centers full of shops to let, and vast swathes of derelict heavy industrial sites . 30 or so years ago the canals had a death knell sounded and were really only,only, just saved by a very ,very, few enthusiasts.I am not sure the current boating fraternity has the requisite number of young fit enthusiasts with the required skills to save many small harbours. The diversity of vessels in any harbour from the 1930 classic to the modern wide beam racer , even the little oppy or triumph herald complete with mast and May at the helm is what make visiting harbours interesting. If any more are allowed to decline and become derelict, the people of this country will lose a lot more that another percentage of GDP. The current generation do not have the nouse that previous generations have had and by time they get the nouse they will be in their sixties and the harbours will have been battered by the current storms that are surrounding us .

The industrial revolution , and in particular the Victorians built huge amounts of our infrastructure, a lot of which has gone , train lines canals, I hope that future generations don't curse us for letting more go.

What a bleak picture! Don't recognise any of that. For every sign you see of decline you can find an equally valid example of resurgence or new development. Just because it is not like your image of the past does not mean there is not a growing level of activity - just in different ways and different places.

 

[vjmehra]

To be fair, given that we're constantly flirting with recession its reasonably accurate to assume there's a lack of industrial growth around and it definitely seems to be the case that leisure pursuits, water based ones in particular are struggling.

They will pick up at some point and some businesses/organisations may need to change for that to happen, but they almost certainly will!

 

[photodog]

What a bleak picture! Don't recognise any of that. For every sign you see of decline you can find an equally valid example of resurgence or new development. Just because it is not like your image of the past does not mean there is not a growing level of activity - just in different ways and different places.

The funny thing is... The value of manufacturing in the uk has increased steadily since 1945... Even as its value as a percentage of GDP has fallen and the percentage of people employed has fallen.

There is a perception that manufacturing has been steadily in decline in the uk since the war... But it simply is not true.. It has simply become smaller as a percentage of our overall eceonomy... Something quite normal in western economies as they have matured and as productivity in manufacturing has improved.

The historical peak in uk manufacturing In terms of value and productivity was in 2007.. Just before the crash.

So, please, can we stop banging on about the uk not manufactureing anything, or how we are in terminal decline??

It's simply NOT true.

 

[Tranona]

It's simply NOT true.

Could not agree more! The number of cars produced in the UK now is higher than it has ever been - even in the heyday of "British" manufacturers - or maybe because they are no longer there!..

Going back to the subject of this thread - compare the number of leisure only harbours north of London now compared with 40 years ago. Massive growth in marinas in old commercial docks and sailing on reservoirs and lakes that was simply not there in the past. Picked my grandson up the other week from his taster session on Rutland Water with the cubs. 100+ youngsters trying out dinghy sailing in an evening session. Few such opportunities for landlocked children when I was that age.

It is not the shortage of opportunities, just the range that is open to people these days which means that not every hobby grows at the same rate.

 

[pmagowan]

well, if the mobo people are getting the credit for being friendly then i would just like to say that anyone passing by a small yellowish wooden boat in Glenarm or abroad in Scotland is more than welcome to sample our ample liquid stores. We may be low on mixers, depending on your attitude, but we have quite a good variety of the strong stuff and always welcome someone raising the waterline.

 

[deuc02]

Could not agree more! The number of cars produced in the UK now is higher than it has ever been - even in the heyday of "British" manufacturers

A very simplistic and stupid statement - business ain't like it used to be

 

[Tranona]

A very simplistic and stupid statement - business ain't like it used to be

Please explain!

Facts are facts. More cars are produced in the UK now than in the past. Why do you find that "very simplistic and stupid" - and what do you mean by "business ain't like it used to be"?

 

[Seagreen]

More thoughts - and a bit of a revision.

Firstly, Exmouth Marina and Trouts both have long waiting lists, so it obviously isn't the money. However, these marinas have an almost exclusively RIB and mobo client base. In other words, people can just come down to their second homes (most of the Marina development) and usually get out on the water for a quick trip out and back, if the weather is condusive.

On the other hand, larger sailing boats are very constrained by the tide, which means out-and-back in 6 hours, or out-and-Dartmouth, etc., for a weekend. And there really isn't much else to do. Certainly there isn't much to see once you get out, and if you are constrained friday night - sunday night for a weekend trip, you have to either be lucky with your tides or you are staying in the river. A very early start could see you doing Plymouth or the Solent and back, but you would have to be very lucky with the wind coming back across Lyme Bay,

I had hoped that flexible working arrangements would allow people more time to sail, but it seems that in order to fund a boat of any size, you have to earn the money, which takes all your time and stops you sailing.

The two of the four clubs on the river have big dinghy fleets, but there just doesn't seem to be the transition into smaller cruisers that the cruiser market actually needs. Maybe its just a local thing to Exeter. I have a notion that Plymouth, at least in terms of its rivers and nearby bays had a lot more to offer, and a lot more variety.
Anyway, I do get a bit jealous of people like Dylan, who have small handy trailer sailers, and though I love my varnished gaffer, I'd like to spend more time sailing and less time piling up yard bills.

I still am surprised in the lack of decent new small cruisers. I could be persuaded into a nice ply 23 footer on a trailer, a bit like an upgraded Shoal Waters. So could a lot of other people. But virtually all such little boats (crabbers, shrimpers, and the odd old Hurley 22) all seem to have retired people in them. :sigh:

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Not quite true that more cars are produced now in UK than in the past. I believe more cars were produced in 1972 but certainly present production is very encouraging and the best for many years despite the so-called "recession". Whilst it seems odd that so much is overseas owned, we should remember that British Companies own much of the coach industries in USA and Spain, for example, alongside other UK owned companies abroad. In that sense "business ain't like it used to be" but Tranona certainly didn't make a simplistic and stupid statement.

Please explain!

Facts are facts. More cars are produced in the UK now than in the past. Why do you find that "very simplistic and stupid" - and what do you mean by "business ain't like it used to be"?

 

[fergie_mac66]

Sorry Photodog,Tranona Decline is here in our midst

Shopping centers are dieing.Young people are three times more likely to be unemployed than adults a lot of them with degrees .The canals were nearly lost. I have come into contact with a surprisingly large number of young people who can count on one hand the number of times they have been to the coast, Harbours have lost fishing industries,small scale boatbuilders ,shipbuilding, coastal trading is being continually concentrated into a few centers, B and B holiday making has drastically reduced,small scale local manufacturing servicing boats has gone, admittedly wind farms are giving a few harbours new life with jobs in the servicing industry.Leisure boaters take money into small harbours and leisure boaters are in decline.

Terminal decline is not being seen in the central south yet but many Harbours are being taken over by 2nd homeowners who give very little to the micro.local economies there have been threads about that effect the local farming industries around harbours employ few people. Even large places like Bristol which still have trade are looking at barta economics and local currencies to try and keep the cash from flowing out of the local economies.

Small "day tripper " harbours appear crowded and busy in the summer weekend trading time but visit in the winter when the shops are boarded ,closed and waiting to re let because the previous summer tenant has failed to make a go of it, The new tenant will be enthusiastic about a new business but the tide is continuing to rise and the gov spends days, weeks, months discussing marriages. I could go on. People will continue to say new things will come along but they have been saying that for years in the coal, steel, mining towns. I had my boat in Grimsby (I could pick many much smaller harbours ) for a few years,fifteen years ago . I called in a couple of years ago. I saw very little development just cleared areas . Coast had an episode covering the huge ice plant mothballed 30/40 years ago The machinery still there derelict, The huge building still there un-developed. I'm sure people have being saying something new will be coming for the past 30 40 years, it doesn't seem to be arriving.

Small harbours are dieing inspite of enthusiastic volunteer harbour commissioners who are desperately trying to keep the books balancing

The head in the sand , politics that have pervaded over most of the country , perhaps excluding the home counties, is not helping a huge section of the population of the county hence the scots wanting to leave

Edit In Padstow the local police often patrol gratis on rest days out of enthusiasm and a sense of responsibility to the public Im sure similar occurs in other harbours

 

[fergie_mac66]

P.S

This seem to encourage more decline to small harbours:-

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?362255-debt-deficit-and-doom

 

[photodog]

This seem to encourage more decline to small harbours:-

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?362255-debt-deficit-and-doom

I make no comment on a decline in the marine industry.... But there is no link to a terminal decline in manufacturing, because there has not been a decline.

I do wish that peeps would stop drinking the kool-aid though... Lots of things are changing... It doesn't mean things are going to pot... It means things are changing.

 

[peterb]

Confession: I've never owned a boat in my life. But I still go cruising, usually as skipper. I sail with a club. The club owns the boats, I charter from the club. The boats are in use from April round to November; none of this staying unused in a marina. Prices are half to two thirds those of commercial charters. We are a recognised RYA school, so that we can 'grow' our own skippers, from Competent Crew up to Ocean Yachtmasters.

Yes, there are disadvantages. The main one is that one's sailing has to be planned ahead; you can't just hop down to the coast when the sun is shining. But there are compensating advantages; one of our boats is currently making its way to Poland, with crew changes every 8 - 10 days. Not something that the average skipper can do, unless he gets three months holiday every summer.

The surprising thing to me is that there are so few clubs operating in this way. It's ideal for novices; they can sail under an experienced eye and gradually work there way up to skippering, and all for less money even than required to run a 22-footer.

 

[Tranona]

You see it as decline, but it is just another stage in the cycle of a dynamic society. We may not currently have growth at the rates seen in the past, but the population has grown, the number of people in work is steadily rising. The country is immeasurably richer than it was when I was born.

Perhaps you need to look at history and see that the cycle is no different from the past. 150 years ago the Midlands and the North were the growth areas - cities growing in population at rates not unlike China today and the south was the poor agricultural part of the country. You can construct arguments to support your view of the change as "decline" or just as changing patterns in society. They may have more direct effect on you which make you see them differently from how others see them, but again history will show you there are always winners and losers in any change.

Look forward, not backwards. You can't do anything about the past but you can take your opportunities for the future. Its not the end of the world if small harbours decline. I am sitting in my study looking out over Poole harbour - erstwhile Roman trading post, Saxon settlement, mediaeval grain exporter, home port for Newfoundland cod fishing fleet, centre of pottery production, wartime flying boat base and centre for production of torpedos (and Seagull engines), ferry port, seaside resort, builder of luxury yachts, weekend retreat for thousands of city dwellers - and location of the most expensive real estate in the country, on land that 100 years ago you could not give away.

The world is about change - always has been and always will be.

 

[Kukri]

There are a lot more boats around than there were when I bought my first boat, in 1971. It seemed to me, then, from the perspective of an 18 foot half decked boat "cruising" with an ex Army groundsheet over the boom, that "big boats" - almost all on moorings, because marinas were just getting started, were usually around 28ft and were usually wooden. There were far fewer swinging moorings than there are now.

I don't recall any snobbery, in fact owners of big boats were very nice to owners of cheap little boats, but Heaven help you if you screwed up a manouevre, under sail of course, in sight of the Victory at West Mersea, full of retired smacksmen, or the Butt and Oyster at Pin Mill, full of retired barge skippers.

 

[Babylon]

The problem with honing this discussion into a clear picture is that there are so many factors and a great deal of subjectivity!

My own view is that its largely down to economic and changing cultural factors, plus the fact that people have increasingly competing demands on their time. I certainly do! But the bottom line is that there is significantly less job-security and the cost of housing as a proportion of incomes is totally skewed. When everything was booming, this didn't matter. Now it does.

Its an interesting debate and I think that I fall into the 'target category' of young(ish) people that the boating industry needs/wants to attract. I'm not sure whether my thoughts/experiences are typical or not, but here goes....

...I ended up being made redundant from a fairly well paid banking job, and whilst I have a new job now and financially am comfortable it made me realise I don't really want to throw money at a boat right now!

...Well, what I was trying to say is that its not a lack of interest that's stopping people from sailing, its many other factors! Time and cost being the key ones...!

Point clearly made. But just wait until you start a family!

A different point of view, maybe. After forty years of avoiding big posh yot clubs with "Royal.." in their title and blue ensigns, I joined one last year.

Should have done so long ago. Nice people, both my children enjoy spending a day there, and in fact it is a great deal more friendly than the small club that I belonged to before.

Good point. My own experience of a sizable south coast club (with a very down-to-earth membership) has only been very positive. Without it, my sailing - and its related social life - would have been considerably poorer.

Yep but sports are ciclical in nature. Sailing will have its good decades and bad decades, right now we are in a slump from arguably an over large sailing community. It's making some marinas keep costs down.

Completely agree. If the 'size' of sailing fell by 25%, that would still leave a huge number of boats and sailors all round the country, and market forces will adjust the cost to us accordingly.

Sailing is filled with old school class society ideals. Blue/Red Ensign, Yacht club membership (if I want to be interviewed by idiots I'll go for a job at a call centre). Big boat/small boat. AWB/MAB. etc...

...Cost, Snobbery (read the threads on here about Sunsail) declining economy, bigots within sailing (not going to say sport). Previous boat was a mobo and can honestly say that the mobo crew are are much better at intermingling with each other and having a good time.

Subjective. You must have a strong shoulder to carry so many chips.

You see it as decline, but it is just another stage in the cycle of a dynamic society. We may not currently have growth at the rates seen in the past, but the population has grown, the number of people in work is steadily rising. The country is immeasurably richer than it was when I was born.

Perhaps you need to look at history and see that the cycle is no different from the past... history will show you there are always winners and losers in any change.

Look forward, not backwards. You can't do anything about the past but you can take your opportunities for the future...

The world is about change - always has been and always will be.

You sound like my dad! Completely agree with you though.

 

[fergie_mac66]

Imaginative Growth Is the Key........

I make no comment on a decline in the marine industry.... But there is no link to a terminal decline in manufacturing, because there has not been a decline.

I do wish that peeps would stop drinking the kool-aid though... Lots of things are changing... It doesn't mean things are going to pot... It means things are changing.

You see it as decline, but it is just another stage in the cycle of a dynamic society. We may not currently have growth at the rates seen in the past, but the population has grown, the number of people in work is steadily rising. The country is immeasurably richer than it was when I was born.

Perhaps you need to look at history and see that the cycle is no different from the past. 150 years ago the Midlands and the North were the growth areas - cities growing in population at rates not unlike China today and the south was the poor agricultural part of the country. You can construct arguments to support your view of the change as "decline" or just as changing patterns in society. They may have more direct effect on you which make you see them differently from how others see them, but again history will show you there are always winners and losers in any change.

Look forward, not backwards. You can't do anything about the past but you can take your opportunities for the future. Its not the end of the world if small harbours decline. I am sitting in my study looking out over Poole harbour - erstwhile Roman trading post, Saxon settlement, mediaeval grain exporter, home port for Newfoundland cod fishing fleet, centre of pottery production, wartime flying boat base and centre for production of torpedos (and Seagull engines), ferry port, seaside resort, builder of luxury yachts, weekend retreat for thousands of city dwellers - and location of the most expensive real estate in the country, on land that 100 years ago you could not give away.

The world is about change - always has been and always will be.

...........And current Bean counter have no idea or care about The coastal regions which participated in previous economic expansions .Yes the Romans used the coast so did the Victorians they realised the coast was closer to all parts of the country .

Im not banging on about decline I am banging on about stopping decline by a bit of imaginative expansion of modern manufacturing and adapting old centers of logistics

For example :- How about a couple of modern fleets of fast cat Coasters, east and west, carrying say 500 to a 1000 containers plus a some cars . Add to this a few new modern logistic centers In say Grimsby, Tyne and wear, Peterhead, Firth of Forth area , Milford haven, somewhere in SW, Whitehaven, LiverPool, Somwhere up in Western isles or Glasgow , Receiver centers to take delivery of the container at Felixtowe Dover and other container vessel centers Some modern manufacturing units built local to those area some encouragement for new Business in those areas . Part of the infrastructure is already there the Vic's built it! Those local populations would have a chance to participate in the non declined manufacturing Industry . HS2 needn't be stopped but the schemes could complement each other . The whole country could participate. edit and alot of weight would be taken off the roads helping stop the crumbeling pot holes.

It could spawn whole new industries and commerce across the north sea and somehow I dont think the costs would be anywhere near the cost of HS2

Just a further thought the fast cat coasters would be small enough in Uk unused location camels in liverpool regenerate A bit of small scale shipbuilding up on the Tyne. Small Harbours would get trickle down regeneration and new business

Just because areas are decline in cycles doesn't mean that they should be allowed to .

For gods sake lets have all the country growing all our grand children might then have a better future

 

[robertj]

Many years ago we started on small boats because of borrowing rates. Interest not that long ago for a mortgage would be15% and higher. The generation before me went through the war and learned the hard way and possibly influencing their offspring into the pitfalls of debt.
Now the younger generation are certainly different, brought up in a New World Order of borrowing, labels, toys etc etc., with very low interest rates to artificially sustain this buying on credit.
Good old Maggie certainly encouraged this in her reign as queen of England, she or should I say her handlers encouraged this with vigour.
The decline is and has been gradual, with the new world super powers asserting their dominance of consumer goods, our manufacturing is non existent due to labour costs/investment or for what ever reason will or more importantly can't compete.

As the artificially low interest rates now, are wiped out as the next possible or probable depression arrives, the decline in the industry is imminent!?
Boating is a luxury and will be the first to suffer!