Questions about Sigma 33

[NigelCraig]

Thought I'd better put this on a new thread as its not really related to previous post on single-handing.

I've seen potentially nice OOD one that has been drysailed for much of its life and previous owner has done quite a bit of cruising orientated refit. However I had few thoughts before taking it further.

Firstly this is probably stupid question but do they all have permanent mast bend, starting well below spreaders? (its 5 yrs. since I've been on one)

1. This has 10HP engine which presumably just to get off mooring and back. Any ideas on recommended unit to re-engine with? Is 28/30HP too much and would the 10HP which presumably is a runner have much value?

2. If the tidemark is indicative of actual waterline it's way below the bootline (and that should be right as gelcoat original) 10-12 cm towards the stern and indicates sits a bit bow down - could this be indicative of weight saving/light engine making it bows heavy or is it nothing to worry about?

3. Although I understand keel join area has been reinforced and keel re-attached with keel bolts checked, there is some corrosion showing through on the edges of a rectangular plate surrounding the hull/keel join - obviously something for a surveyor to check out but I don't understand the structure - looks like a grounding plate set into the hull?

 

[emandvee44]

I am sure there will some others along shortly, but I owned two OODs at different times.
The engine should probably be 18hp, (on the later models), so weight would be different and I think a 10hp engine would not be OOD compliant.
Trim needs to be looked at but a lighter engine would make a difference.
Keel is flanged; that is, the hull has a recess and the keel is a complete iron casting with a flanged top which fits into the recess. The keel bolts are screwed into the flange. Rust is common on Sigma keels - a constant battle!

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Michael.

 

[johnalison]

I can't answer the model-specific questions but would expect an engine of about 18hp to be about right, with a good folding prop. Bav 34s were offered with 18hp as standard and my friend's 27hp alternative was plenty, so you might prefer a smaller motor that would be sufficient for an easily-driven hull like the Sigma but not be under-worked when motor-sailing.

 

[Tranona]

For an engine, assuming there are no OOD constraints, any of the 20hp from Volvo, Beta, Nanni, Yanmar etc will be fine. Always a ready market for 10hp engines, especially if you sell it with all the installation bits and easier if it is in the boat and still running.

 

[NigelCraig]

Thanks for information - one further question - is there room to fit an electric windlass?

 

[sailorman]

Thanks for information - one further question - is there room to fit an electric windlass?

we have an S-L anchorman works well enough on 37`

 

[Quandary]

It is a shame to buy a competitive OOD and then take it out of class, there are potential owners who would treasure the boat for what it is, keep it on the register and use it in the way it was meant to be used.
Why not but a Moody or similar instead? Same builder, same cushion fabric and will have a bigger engine and a windlass.

 

[lpdsn]

2. If the tidemark is indicative of actual waterline it's way below the bootline (and that should be right as gelcoat original) 10-12 cm towards the stern and indicates sits a bit bow down - could this be indicative of weight saving/light engine making it bows heavy or is it nothing to worry about?

Pretty normal. Once a full racing crew are on board it should trim nicely.

I suspect cruising owners just put a dinghy, liferaft & spare kitchen sink in the quarter berth.

PS is the 10hp a typo for 18hp in the advert. Might be an idea to get on board and check the engine.

Would expect a racing version to have the mast tuned with a fair bit of pre-bend. It should be a smooth curve, so look very closely for anything resembling a kink.

Compression post, top of main bulkhead is another place to check (rig could be over tensioned causing damage).

A previous owner of a Sigma 33 also told me his originally had very little holding the forehatch in place and it could've been almost be popped out from inside.

 

[saltylegs]

Thanks for information - one further question - is there room to fit an electric windlass?

There was a recent post on the sigma 33 web site about someone installing a windlass, but the site seems to have gone down this week.
I agree with Quandary about keeping the boat in class or making mods that can be simply changed back to class rules.
As an example I have a 33 OOD and the engine had been replaced with a slightly lighter one so my boat would need correctors to be in class, so I have fitted a dedicated engine battery as an extra and a hot air heater located in the engine bay.
The boats themselves are very easy to work on and I was able to do a very big refit single handed over one winter outside.
hopefully heres a link to a few pics.
http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/saltylegs/library/
great boats and rewarding to sail.

 

[Quandary]

I am a former Sigma 33 owner and my son still crews on one, (current and previous National Champion), so I feel a considerable loyalty and affection for the class. The number of boats still in class and actively racing is in decline and the availability of replacement masts has become a really big problem now that the extrusion is no longer available. There are so many other boats available to go cruising but in the thirty years since the 33 no one has been able to market an affordable one design racing yacht, so why do people who do not even understand pre-bend, want to castrate a Sigma in an attempt to make it in to something else. They are in demand as one design race boats because (unfortunately) there is nothing else like them and it is so sad to see examples now that can no longer be used for this. We raced ours, we cruised it extensively with a then young family and I did some single handed passage making in it but we never considered it as anything other than a one design racer, it was why we bought it.
If for no other reason than that a boat taken out of class is of little value when it comes to be sold, just look around for something nearer to your purpose, to buy a Sigma 33 OOD without ambition to race it against others so evenly matched boat for boat is a crime.

 

[NigelCraig]

I am a former Sigma 33 owner and my son still crews on one, (current and previous National Champion), so I feel a considerable loyalty and affection for the class. The number of boats still in class and actively racing is in decline and the availability of replacement masts has become a really big problem now that the extrusion is no longer available. There are so many other boats available to go cruising but in the thirty years since the 33 no one has been able to market an affordable one design racing yacht, so why do people who do not even understand pre-bend, want to castrate a Sigma in an attempt to make it in to something else. They are in demand as one design race boats because (unfortunately) there is nothing else like them and it is so sad to see examples now that can no longer be used for this. We raced ours, we cruised it extensively with a then young family and I did some single handed passage making in it but we never considered it as anything other than a one design racer, it was why we bought it.
If for no other reason than that a boat taken out of class is of little value when it comes to be sold, just look around for something nearer to your purpose, to buy a Sigma 33 OOD without ambition to race it against others so evenly matched boat for boat is a crime.

Heavens, why so much hostility? I think it was "castrated" at least a couple of years before I looked at it as I wouldn't expect one used purely for racing to have a stac-pac for the mainsail and as for being "in-demand", clearly no-one has demanded this one. As it happens I would prefer the fractional rig of the OOD to the masthead cruising version as it's more adjustable and no thank you I don't really want a caravan with sails (Moody 31) for the same reason I don't want a Westerly Konsort so I guess I'll have to settle for a criminal record. As for pre-bend I always understood that was bent forward rather than aft to give more scope for adjustment through backstay tension.

BTW, not a typo, broker confirmed that it was 10HP, so maybe its got a lump of lead somewhere to keep it in class!

 

[mrming]

for pre-bend I always understood that was bent forward rather than aft to give more scope for adjustment through backstay tension.

Pre-bend is a natural consequence of rig tension on a tweaky mast. You can't have rig tension without bending the mast, so it's bent in a controlled fashion

The tip of the mast is bent aft, with the centre section smoothly curving forward. Applying backstay tension then has the dual effect of flattening the main and increasing the tension on the forestay.

If the mast did bend the other way it would be said to be inverted - my boat has a baby stay to prevent this happening as it can lead to failure of the mast.

 

[Quandary]

Apologies to the OP I did not mean to exhibit hostility.
Your response though, does indicate that you have not so far bothered to try to understand how a fractional rig works so I would suggest that that indicates that the Sigma is not the boat for you. Setting up the rig for weather conditions or condition of sails is a big part of getting these boats to go. Even if, as you suggest, this boat has lost its OOD status, it still seems perverse to choose it when there are other boats that you might understand much more readily. The rig is the important part of a Sigma, the engine is secondary, your priorities would be better met in a different boat.
If you do buy it make sure to get early advice on setting up the mast and how to adjust it, as things stand just now all the replacement mast extrusions are used up and the class association is still striving to find an affordable solution. We encountered a mast less Sigma OOD in Kyle last month, struggling to get home, his rig came down when he gybed in the Minch, he persuaded the lifeboat to tow the boat to Stornaway without cutting the rig away and then was spending a fortune getting the bits trucked back to the mainland to see if anything could be salvaged.

 

[doug748]

I sold my running Petter 12hp for £400 via an advert in the local paper, there was lots of interest. Much better if you can demonstrate it running in the boat. A Beta 16 or 20 is probably lighter than the 10hp job so nothing to worry about there. The 20 is a more sophisticated arrangement and only a smidge more to purchase.

The dodgy bent mast may but got straight by a fiddle with the rigging. I should ask the seller to demonstrate this prior to purchase. If it has been kinked you should anticipate the cost of a replacement. Bearing in mind the comments above, this would be whatever bendy section you can source.

I don't see that you are proposing to do owt daft.

 

[lpdsn]

As for pre-bend I always understood that was bent forward rather than aft to give more scope for adjustment through backstay tension.

BTW, not a typo, broker confirmed that it was 10HP, so maybe its got a lump of lead somewhere to keep it in class!

It's quite easy to learn about pre-bend, rake & mast tuning.* The general idea is to get the aerofoil closer to the shape of a spitfire wing, so the leading edge is curved. Backstay adjusts the mainsail shape and forestay tension and therefore the foresail shape -any decent race trimming book will explain it (North sails's one is my favourite) and there's a lot on the web.

If you buy the Sigma you might even want to try racing but beware you might get hooked (that said it is better to learn how to race well on someone else's boat before buying your own racer).

If you just want a fast cruiser there's quite a spectrum between the Sigmas and a Westerly or Moody brick. Dehler 31 & 34 are fast, sea kindly & tough. The old Beneteaus (i.e not x.7 and not really the xx5) aren't that dissimilar to Sigmas. If you want to spend a bit more money, the Maxi 1000 is a nice fast boat of similar size.

10hp is strange. Small for a cruiser of that size and illogical for a racing-owner of a one-design racer.


*It's a black art to get good at it. Just looking at some race results where a new mast seems to be cost a boat about four places on average. That's with an owner who had the knowledge to get his previous rig spot on, but'll take him a while to get the new one right.

 

[NigelCraig]

Apologies to the OP I did not mean to exhibit hostility.
Your response though, does indicate that you have not so far bothered to try to understand how a fractional rig works so I would suggest that that indicates that the Sigma is not the boat for you. Setting up the rig for weather conditions or condition of sails is a big part of getting these boats to go. Even if, as you suggest, this boat has lost its OOD status, it still seems perverse to choose it when there are other boats that you might understand much more readily. The rig is the important part of a Sigma, the engine is secondary, your priorities would be better met in a different boat.
If you do buy it make sure to get early advice on setting up the mast and how to adjust it, as things stand just now all the replacement mast extrusions are used up and the class association is still striving to find an affordable solution. We encountered a mast less Sigma OOD in Kyle last month, struggling to get home, his rig came down when he gybed in the Minch, he persuaded the lifeboat to tow the boat to Stornaway without cutting the rig away and then was spending a fortune getting the bits trucked back to the mainland to see if anything could be salvaged.

Your response shows rather predictable response to my throwaway line on negative bend. Still I may have found a reason to avoid OODs and its nothing to do with the boat itself.......

I think this thread has run its course

 

[NigelCraig]

If you buy the Sigma you might even want to try racing but beware you might get hooked (that said it is better to learn how to race well on someone else's boat before buying your own racer).

I do race but only dinghies

 

[Quandary]

Your response shows rather predictable response to my throwaway line on negative bend. Still I may have found a reason to avoid OODs and its nothing to do with the boat itself.......

I think this thread has run its course

Job done then!