Question for any instructor/examiner?

[RJJ]

First mate is about to do her DS theory. Her instructor has told her that any innaccuracy in plotting a fix will lead to fail. in revising ahead of tomorrow's exam, she has just obtained a 100 yard "cocked hat" and is now convinced she will fail.

I am trying to say that a 100 yard margin of error (from an object 3.5m away) is acceptable. It's a fraction of a degree, the thickness of the lines on the plotter. A big cocked hat is a prompt that you made a significant plotting error, then you check again.

More importantly in real world, if visibility is such that you can see 3.5 miles, 100 yards in open water (which you've covered several times over in the time taken between fixes) is simply neither here nor there. If you are within 100 yards of an unmarked hazard and you don't know it's there or which way lies safe water, a far-off fix isn't much good to you.

Am I right? Or is the instructor right to indicate that all 3 lines must actually cross? Trying to help 1st mate through something she is finding quite tough.

 

[FlyingGoose]

I have done this online and there is a margin for error that we are allowed, seems a little harsh , as you said pencil lines and the exact number is very hard to obtain from the exam paper, hopefully some instructor will come along to will alleviate the fears

 

[scotty123]

First mate is about to do her DS theory. Her instructor has told her that any innaccuracy in plotting a fix will lead to fail. in revising ahead of tomorrow's exam, she has just obtained a 100 yard "cocked hat" and is now convinced she will fail.

I am trying to say that a 100 yard margin of error (from an object 3.5m away) is acceptable. It's a fraction of a degree, the thickness of the lines on the plotter. A big cocked hat is a prompt that you made a significant plotting error, then you check again.

More importantly in real world, if visibility is such that you can see 3.5 miles, 100 yards in open water (which you've covered several times over in the time taken between fixes) is simply neither here nor there. If you are within 100 yards of an unmarked hazard and you don't know it's there or which way lies safe water, a far-off fix isn't much good to you.

Am I right? Or is the instructor right to indicate that all 3 lines must actually cross? Trying to help 1st mate through something she is finding quite tough.

She has demonstrated that you can work out a plot, actual accuracy imo is unlikely to fail.

 

[Skylark]

I’m a Shorebased Instructor but I don’t think it wise to comment specifically on your query which may or may not have been misunderstood and/or taken out of context. I suggest that you speak directly to the instructor concerned.

In general, the Assessment Papers are graded into 4. Good. Average. Fair and Poor. These all have clear definitions.

For example, Good, is “No significant errors. The Student has clearly demonstrated that they understand the subject and any missing elements or mistakes are superficial and unlikely to be a safety issue if made in practice.”

Students graded Fair or Poor may be offered a retest.......in whole or in part.

Instructors also receive guidance as to when a course completion certificate should not be awarded.

I’m sure that your Instructor would be very happy talk through your concerns.

 

[RJJ]

I’m a Shorebased Instructor but I don’t think it wise to comment specifically on your query which may or may not have been misunderstood and/or taken out of context. I suggest that you speak directly to the instructor concerned.

In general, the Assessment Papers are graded into 4. Good. Average. Fair and Poor. These all have clear definitions.

For example, Good, is “No significant errors. The Student has clearly demonstrated that they understand the subject and any missing elements or mistakes are superficial and unlikely to be a safety issue if made in practice.”

Students graded Fair or Poor may be offered a retest.......in whole or in part.

Instructors also receive guidance as to when a course completion certificate should not be awarded.

I’m sure that your Instructor would be very happy talk through your concerns.

Useful, thanks! Can you please define "average?"

 

[scotty123]

Understands method, but arithmetic might be astray a little.

 

[Skylark]

Useful, thanks! Can you please define "average?"

The student has shown that they understand the principle on which they have been tested but the work does contain some errors.........................(more)

 

[penberth3]

First mate is about to do her DS theory. Her instructor has told her that any innaccuracy in plotting a fix will lead to fail. in revising ahead of tomorrow's exam, she has just obtained a 100 yard "cocked hat" and is now convinced she will fail...…

........Am I right? Or is the instructor right to indicate that all 3 lines must actually cross? Trying to help 1st mate through something she is finding quite tough.

Isn't the point of a three-point fix to help identify errors in sights or mistakes in plotting?

Expecting three lines to cross exactly is asking the impossible.

 

[scotty123]

Isn't the point of a three-point fix to help identify errors in sights or mistakes in plotting?

Expecting three lines to cross exactly is asking the impossible.

Hence cocked hat, although that might be due to progress of boat.
Theory plotting is usually to demonstrate understanding of variation/deviation to derive true for actual plot.

 

[Sandy]

First mate is about to do her DS theory. Her instructor has told her that any innaccuracy in plotting a fix will lead to fail. in revising ahead of tomorrow's exam, she has just obtained a 100 yard "cocked hat" and is now convinced she will fail.

I am trying to say that a 100 yard margin of error (from an object 3.5m away) is acceptable. It's a fraction of a degree, the thickness of the lines on the plotter. A big cocked hat is a prompt that you made a significant plotting error, then you check again.

More importantly in real world, if visibility is such that you can see 3.5 miles, 100 yards in open water (which you've covered several times over in the time taken between fixes) is simply neither here nor there. If you are within 100 yards of an unmarked hazard and you don't know it's there or which way lies safe water, a far-off fix isn't much good to you.

Am I right? Or is the instructor right to indicate that all 3 lines must actually cross? Trying to help 1st mate through something she is finding quite tough.

I'm not an examiner or instructor, but if I get all three lines to cross at one point I know there is an error. NOBODY can be that precise.

 

[scotty123]

I'm not an examiner or instructor, but if I get all three lines to cross at one point I know there is an error. NOBODY can be that precise.

They can in a theoretical exercise.

 

[srm]

A few years ago I was talking to a fellow skipper while on our way through the Caledonian Canal. It emerged that he was an RYA instructor. He obviously had a very high opinion of himself and seemed proud of the fact that he could fail people - "because being in charge of a boat could be a matter of life or death". Once he was out of hearing range his wife said that he only taught evening classes, and lamented that she was not allowed to handle their boat in contrast to my wife who had been on the helm throughout our canal transit.

Fortunately, as an ex YM instructor, I know that such characters are a rarity. Perhaps the student in question has the misfortune to be in his class.

 

[James_Calvert]

I'm no instructor, but isn't the point about precision in the theoretical exercises and tests that if they are done correctly they won't show errors. So if it all looks good the instructor or examiner can move quickly onto the next item

Whereas if if isn't precise, there's probably an error in the method used, in this case perhaps variation or deviation being allowed for in the wrong direction.

And as students we are expected to be able to plot accurately enough to reveal such errors.

 

[scotty123]

I'm no instructor, but isn't the point about precision in the theoretical exercises and tests that if they are done correctly they won't show errors. So if it all looks good the instructor or examiner can move quickly onto the next item

Whereas if if isn't precise, there's probably an error in the method used, in this case perhaps variation or deviation being allowed for in the wrong direction.

And as students we are expected to be able to plot accurately enough to reveal such errors.

Errors are good, the instructor then is able to explain why, much better way of learning, otherwise getting it correct could be pure chance.

 

[FlyingGoose]

Or your a Genius like me.

 

[RJJ]

I'm no instructor, but isn't the point about precision in the theoretical exercises and tests that if they are done correctly they won't show errors. So if it all looks good the instructor or examiner can move quickly onto the next item

Whereas if if isn't precise, there's probably an error in the method used, in this case perhaps variation or deviation being allowed for in the wrong direction.

And as students we are expected to be able to plot accurately enough to reveal such errors.

I checked her working, no "error". We are talking about a triangle 3mm across. Instructor has given the impression that is insufficiently close. I don't agree, I think that's pretty good.

 

[James_Calvert]

If I'm right, maybe he's simply whinging that she can't draw straight...

My sympathies anyway.

 

[Uricanejack]

I have nothing to do with the RYA so what they require ?.

Is plotting accuracy important? depends on scale and distance.
Method is more important.
Arithmetical error or slight plotting error no so much.
Apply a correction incorrectly or a set incorrectly would be an error in principle which is much more important.

Reassure your wife if she applies the technics correctly she should still pass even if she make a small arithmetical or plotting error provided its not an error in principle.
Take her time, double check,
Its probably just exam nerves.

 

[alexincornwall]

I’m not a shore based instructor but am a Cruising Instructor and there is no way I’d fail a DS practical student for having a 100 yard cocked hat on their 3 point fix, as long as they could demonstrate a sound approach to their workings. Most DS candidates that fail do so because there are a number of issues, not just one (with the exception of hitting another boat, running aground hard or crash gybing).

 

[Richard10002]

Isn't the point of a three-point fix to help identify errors in sights or mistakes in plotting?

Expecting three lines to cross exactly is asking the impossible.

In fact, if the 3 lines do cross exactly, there is more chance that they are wrong than right..

I think I once read somewhere that, despite most of us putting a dot in the middle of the cocked hat, in order to mark our position, there is a strong chance that the actual position is outside the cocked hat. It was a long time ago, so I cant recall how it was justified, but I recall it being a well made point.