Qualified Or Not, What Would You Do?

[firstspirit]

Re: Oh, and...

Your absolutely correct. This ONE night watchman was aghast!

Had no idea that when he pressed the button for the lock gates to let out so much water, that he would be setting up one vessel and her crew for a very frightening and potentially life-threatening incident indeed. Undertrained perhaps?

Firstspirit

 

[firstspirit]

Re: Oh, and...

Dear Jimi,

Thanks for reply. I need more to go on than that! Please define RETRIBUTION! Now be sensible, please.

Thanks,

Firstspirit.

 

[firstspirit]

Re: Oh, and...

Jimi,

This was not a sill failure, this was just a simple case of somebody pressing a button and not being informed or trained adequately enough to ascertain the levels of water beneath the vessel in question, despite all such details being logged with the marina operator.

Regards,

Firstspirit

 

[peterk]

Re: big BANG

hey firstspirit,

going to sleep on the low side was my first reaction.
That's what I do if I can't get me boat off in the evening
while careening(she'll slowly fall over again...)

my second one: how should I know?

- I generally anchor out.
'Tehani's' last time in a marina was in April 1997 in
the Royal Cape Yacht Club - since there is no other way to
moor/anchor a boat in Cape Town.

Why do you insist on being so pushy about this?

Don't tell me you are collecting considered opinions
for a court case... perhaps working on an article...are you?

peter, www.juprowa.com/kittel

 

[firstspirit]

Re: This actually happened to me once so...

Stephen T.

Thanks for your reply.

It would have been nice to have had the priveledge of NOTICE, as you obviously knew and could make preparation for your intended lean-to. No notice or warning was given in this instance.

In any event, as I understand matters, all marina operators have a standard 'Duty of Care', towards their customers and their customers' property, irrespective of the fact that the vessel may be occuppied. If you or other forum posters know different to this, I would like to hear it.

As to that 'awful feeling' you mentioned, when the vessel is falling over and you know that there is not enough water left to float in, isn't that an understatement? Don't you mean when your backside goes from half a crown to a sixpence in less than a milli-second?

Regards, keep posting,


Firstspirit

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: big BANG

No Peter, I think he's a trawlerman

 

[firstspirit]

Re: big BANG

Hey PeterK,

It may well be PUSHY that is required here. Marina operators are supposed to act within the laws of the land that they reap business in.

Some little fish do not get the chance of paying for big lawyers or fancy court scene dramas. Some little fish get squeezed very tightly and told to shut up or you, your crew and your vessel will get kicked out!

Some insurance consultants work 'very closely' with marina operators, and some little fish get told by their insurance consultants, 'not to bother', making a claim for damages if they want to stay where they are.

PUSHY, YOU BET, Now, what would you do?

Regards,

Firstspirit.

 

[firstspirit]

Re: big BANG

Goodmorning JohnM,

Please free to join in. I would be very grateful to know what you would do if this happened to you and put your life at risk, as well as your crew and the safety, and investment of your vessel.

Regards,

Firstspirit.

 

[Joe_Cole]

If they had failed me in the way you describe then I would complain first. If this didn't work and I really had suffered a loss then I would go to law as a last resort. If all I had suffered was some inconvenience then I would put it down to experience and go elsewhere.

Meanwhile I would name and shame them. Why don't you?

Joe

 

[Guest]

Re: big BANG

Sorry to put a damper on all this ....

But I don't know of any marina that GUARANTEES water levels in the basin .....

Also it is unusual for a marina to empty the basin via its locks, it is usual for the marina to TOP up its basin via the gates, unless the level has remained too high INSIDE for safe opening / use when tide returns.

But I have another question .... loud bangs etc. etc. having 'fallen over' on many a yacht ... they have normally setlled rather than fallen. Or is it that your moorings held and then gave way letting the boat fall hard ?

Again I'm sorry that you have had a difficult time, but first ALL matters must be looked at and also the small print / actual claims / guarantees that the marina give .... believe me I am NO Marina Friend ... I find them useful but expensive, smart but arrogant, a gods send when you're looking for electric and water .... but having seen some of the 'experienced' Marina managers etc. have some other ideas about some of them !!!!

 

[firstspirit]

Re: big BANG

Welcome to the debate Nigel-Luther,

Your opinion is valid and welcome.

Please read other threads for more details, but something I can let you know in relation to your inquisitive nature.

The marina in question was scheduled for maintainance work on the inner sills of the lock gates, ONE DAY AFTER, the incident actually happened. In this respect, the marina operator had posted official notice, but somehow someone decided to push the open-locks button, too early.

All marinas have a 'duty of care' towards customers, and their crew, and their vessels. Please do not forget it.

I agree with the rest of your comments and hope to hear again from you again as you mull this situation over in your mind.

Regards,

Firstspirit.

 

[Guest]

Unanswered questions ?

Having been in the 'game' all my life ... I don't think I will be mulling it over .....

I still have unanswered questions ... why did your incident involve all those loud bangs / crashes etc. other than the 'crockery' falling out of lockers etc. ??????

Why did the boat 'fall over' so hard ... when most boats will 'settle'

Did you illicit the help of any other boat-owners to go and 'string the b---- up who pushed the button' .. or at least have a good tongue lashing at him ???

How much water was 'left' in the marina after the guy 'pulled' the plug ?

Unless mooring lines are light, not enough for the job ... boats can suffer lack of water and still remain reasonably UP alongside the average marina pontoon .... So why did the boat fall over while alongside the pontoon ? The only time I would be worried about a pontoon is when the style is 'light finger' without end 'pile' and then all weight would ride on the end fixings to the main walkway.

Again ... I am a little confused why the situation seemed to take such a 'violent' road .... or is it that in the telling a little more 'volume' has been added ??????

Interested in the reply !

 

[firstspirit]

Thankyou for your contribution Joe Cole,

This skipper may well end up having no other alternative but to name and shame the marina operator, they did fail this skipper and crew. We did say that we hold them responsible, they said if you do not like it, then leave! How's that for customer service? We drop your boat, then tell you get lost, tuff luck, sue us etc.

Ordinary people do not have access to the very expensive processess involved with taking giants to court.

The present situation is that that are failing too.

Since the incident verbal abuse has been directed towards this skipper and first mate and demonstrable intimidatory practice has been employed and overseen by the Managing Director of the same company.

There is more to come, I promise, but for technical reasons, precise names and details must be kept in confidence.

Please keep posting anything else you may think of, be sure to see my next posting about insurance consultants.

Regards,

Firstspirit.

 

[firstspirit]

Re: big BANG

Dear Nigel Luther,

I have re-read your earlier posting to glean further info and I am attracted by your comments.

"ALL MATTERS MUST BE LOOKED AT".

Would you please be kind enough to give me full details of what you mean. I look forward to your reply.

Regards,

Firstspirit

 

[firstspirit]

Re: Unanswered questions ?

Dear Nigel Luther, Thankyou for your further posting.

In the first instance I must stress that the way in which I address any members on this or any other forum, is intended to be polite and courteous. I do not intend to patronise, nor cause offence..

In seeking the RAW opinion of fellow boat owners, the skipper is well prepared for, and aware, that there will always be people who's opinion does not match that of the experience of that bitterly cold night. You may be entitled to view 'volume' any way you like but irrespective of that, Firstspirit is seeking honest- WHAT WOULD YOU DO?- replies. The skipper, or crew, is not on trial here, it is the action of what actually happened, that is, OR SHOULD BE!

Can a marina operator be a allowed to drop the water in their marina, without having to inform, anyone of the possiblity of heavy grounding or toppling of a vessel? This was not some emergency plan of action on behalf of the marina, it was a scheduled marina shut-down to work on the inner sill, but the dewatering of the marina took place one day ahead of the official notices posted.

The banging and crashing? This marina operator obviously made a mistake. They did not KNOW what was under the vessel in question. What else don't they KNOW about their own business, property etc. When was this berth last dredged? Was it ever dredged? Could there be rubbish, from former industrial docks oprations still strewn around the entire floor of this marina?

The water remaining at this berth was approx 4 feet, the vessel in question has a draught (registered with the marinas) of 6.05 Feet.

Violence? At just under 40 tonnes, the water dropped away, vessel still upright until a crtical moment. Possible stretched lines (there were six 1and half inch in use at the time) due to the windy conditions, slack at the pontoon pilings....it is possible, but I accept your right to be doubtful.

Smacking somebody physically or verbally is not the way decent civilised people behave. The berthing master was following orders...so it's not personal. The skipper is seeking justice and fair play here, and nothing else.

I hope I have addressed the points you have raised and thank you again, any thing else you would do?

Regards,

Firstspirit.

 

[Guest]

Re: Unanswered questions ?

OK --- I am not suggesting any high horses here but as an ex commercial sea-goer, a yottie since early childhood and a professional surveyor with my own survey companys etc. I was trying to 'goad' you into divulging more detail so that a better judgement could be made by postees.

The latest posting by you shows information that was not apparent before ..... size of vessel .. at 40 tons you are way above most on this forum ! Mooring lines and their slack / tightness etc., sill gate maintenance one day earlier, 4 feet of water still in marina after opening gates etc. etc.

I have greatest sympathy for you and would hope that action by you will result in proper and just solution. I just wanted to get more from you so that others could answer more fairly without assuming too much.

If yopu have the wherewithal and patience ... I would go for the Management and Operators of the Marina for improper information and failure to provide service as paid for. Other than that - I still am at a loss about the 'bangs / crashes' etc. that you report happened. It is unusual for vessels to 'topple over' violently, unless some outside influence has been there, such as mooring lines holding, standing on long keel, fin bedded into soft ground ..... but then the bang !!!!?????

I really wish you good luck with your fight and I know what a fight it can be ! Some years ago I was shortlisted to become Manager of one othe best known marinas in UK South. I had passed all tests, boat handling, management etc. etc. I was pipped at the post by another who had no boat / marine experience, but had a strange handshake ......so I wish you luck.
It is great pity that there is no name and shame in the thread.

 

[firstspirit]

Re: Unanswered questions ?

Thank you for your posting Nigel Luther,

Patience is a virtue, but I am not sure how much more this skipper may be Virtuous!

I have tried to keep other forums up to date and obviously failed in this respect. Sorry about that, I will try harder, honest.

Your questions.

This vessel is over 50 Feet, just under 40 tonnes, and is absolutely unique in it's topside construction. It was built for a special purpose, (which for reasons of confidentiality, can not be discussed). The top saloon at its heighest point is approximately 15 feet from the waterline.

I hope with this extra information you can see how the violence of the incident is more believable.

As for naming and shaming, the skipper takes the view, never say never!

Regards,

Firstspirit.

 

[Guest]

Re: Unanswered questions ?

dont see what the issue is here. if you have suffered a loss (you havent made that clear), and if the marina will not compensate, then you right to compensation is a legal issue. you must chose whether you are willing to risk the costs involved and the possible loss of a mooring before you pursue the matter. up to you, or to the boats owner if not you.

cock ups do happen. anyone who has employed staff knows that, and insures against it.

 

[Joe_Cole]

Come on.......this is getting silly.

What technical reasons? Give us the full story and stop playing games.

Joe

 

[firstspirit]

Joe Cole Thank you for your posting.

BUT THE FIRST MATE WAS PREGNANT!

Eight months pregnant at the time of the incident and this marina company said if you do not like it go elsewhere.....and you think it is getting silly. I think you mean MAD, don't you?

The 'technical reasons' are to protect the innocent, the skipper, first mate and crew!

Regards,

Firstspirit.