cindersailor
Member
Any suggestions for the cheapest source of white PVC covered lifeline wire, my usual supplier of things rigging (S3i) will only sell a 500M drum and I only need about 30.
PVC covered lifeline wire
- Thread starter cindersailor
- Start date
Malcb
Active member
Why PVC covered? In my experience things can happen to the wire under the PVC covering.
cindersailor
Member
I suppose because that's what I have currently. Also it is easier to see when you need to make a quick grab for it and it is slightly more comfortable to lean against.
michael_w
Well-known member
The close covered stuff isn't allowed on racing boats anymore. The main reason being that stainless steel rusts badly without oxygen.
The solution is to use bare wire but cover it with Hep2o plastic pipe, available from any decent plumber's merchant.
The solution is to use bare wire but cover it with Hep2o plastic pipe, available from any decent plumber's merchant.
G
Guest
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
The close covered stuff isn't allowed on racing boats anymore. The main reason being that stainless steel rusts badly without oxygen.
The solution is to use bare wire but cover it with Hep2o plastic pipe, available from any decent plumber's merchant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please be careful with such a statement - there are different rules on different race classes / standards ... look at Scuttlebutt at the Baltic Sprint Cup I've just done over here - look closely at the yachts - all certificated / handicapped on most applicable systems - they have to be to gain entry ! You will see most have exactly white plastic covered wire - the PVC type ....
In fact one boat the end swage gave way and needed repair - I had to sort that temp within the rules ...
The close covered stuff isn't allowed on racing boats anymore. The main reason being that stainless steel rusts badly without oxygen.
The solution is to use bare wire but cover it with Hep2o plastic pipe, available from any decent plumber's merchant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please be careful with such a statement - there are different rules on different race classes / standards ... look at Scuttlebutt at the Baltic Sprint Cup I've just done over here - look closely at the yachts - all certificated / handicapped on most applicable systems - they have to be to gain entry ! You will see most have exactly white plastic covered wire - the PVC type ....
In fact one boat the end swage gave way and needed repair - I had to sort that temp within the rules ...
michael_w
Well-known member
ISAF Special Regulations
"3.14.6 Lifeline Minimum Diameters, Required Materials,
Specifications
a) Lifelines shall be stranded stainless steel wire of minimum diameter in table 8 below. Lifelines shall be uncoated and used without close-fitting sleeving.
Notwithstanding 3.14.6 (a), temporary sleeving may be fitted provided it is
regularly removed for inspection
b) Grade 316 stainless wire is recommended.
c) A taut lanyard of synthetic rope may be used to secure lifelines provided the gap it closes does not exceed 100 mm (4 in).
d) All wire, fittings, anchorage points, fixtures and lanyards shall comprise a lifeline enclosure system which has at all points at least the breaking strength of the required lifeline wire.
TABLE 8
LOA minimum wire diameter
under 8.5 m (28ft) 3 mm (1/8 in)
8.5m - 13 m 4 mm (5/32 in)"
IMO, the general interpretation is that on new build and if the guard wires need to be replaced they shall comply with the above.
Full chapter and verse here
"3.14.6 Lifeline Minimum Diameters, Required Materials,
Specifications
a) Lifelines shall be stranded stainless steel wire of minimum diameter in table 8 below. Lifelines shall be uncoated and used without close-fitting sleeving.
Notwithstanding 3.14.6 (a), temporary sleeving may be fitted provided it is
regularly removed for inspection
b) Grade 316 stainless wire is recommended.
c) A taut lanyard of synthetic rope may be used to secure lifelines provided the gap it closes does not exceed 100 mm (4 in).
d) All wire, fittings, anchorage points, fixtures and lanyards shall comprise a lifeline enclosure system which has at all points at least the breaking strength of the required lifeline wire.
TABLE 8
LOA minimum wire diameter
under 8.5 m (28ft) 3 mm (1/8 in)
8.5m - 13 m 4 mm (5/32 in)"
IMO, the general interpretation is that on new build and if the guard wires need to be replaced they shall comply with the above.
Full chapter and verse here
G
Guest
Guest
As I said ... depends on which rules you quote - nopt ALL rules are followed by ALL systems ... and to be honest I'm not going to drag out my rule book now - having had 3 days of race org just finished !
Bet your fun when you make a Protest !! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Bet your fun when you make a Protest !! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
steve_cronin
N/A
So...
...all the production builders who have been fitting PVC covered wires for years are endangering their customers' lives?
Steve Cronin
...all the production builders who have been fitting PVC covered wires for years are endangering their customers' lives?
Steve Cronin
Strathglass
New member
Phil,
Sent you a PM. I have some.
Iain
Sent you a PM. I have some.
Iain
michael_w
Well-known member
Re: So...
"Endangering lives" sounds a bit dramatic. You could say the manufacturers are risking their customer's lives just by building and selling them a boat!
It isn't good practice to close cover stainless steel. No doubt one of the forum's metal experts can explain the reasons why stainless steel needs to be exposed to the air, in order to remain stainless.
IMHO the plastic covered stuff is good for locking up your dinghy, clearing blocked pipes, etc. Not as a safety aid to stop involuntary swims.
"Endangering lives" sounds a bit dramatic. You could say the manufacturers are risking their customer's lives just by building and selling them a boat!
It isn't good practice to close cover stainless steel. No doubt one of the forum's metal experts can explain the reasons why stainless steel needs to be exposed to the air, in order to remain stainless.
IMHO the plastic covered stuff is good for locking up your dinghy, clearing blocked pipes, etc. Not as a safety aid to stop involuntary swims.
gandy
Active member
Available by the metre from Gael Force ...
http://www.gaelforcemarine.co.uk/ProductDetailsPage.aspx?product_id=18161
http://www.gaelforcemarine.co.uk/ProductDetailsPage.aspx?product_id=18161
steve_cronin
N/A
If it isn\'t potentially dangerous.....
...why should the various yacht racing authorities ban it? Curious.
I watched a skippered charter boat owner strip the pvc from his 52 Beneteau in seconds last year because he couldn't face the cost (over £1000) of replacing the covered wires for cosmetic reasons. It was fully bright underneath with not even the signs of any corrosion after seven years.
I replaced my top wires at three years (Lowers to go this winter courtesy of TCS Rigging) because the PVC had succumed to Med. UV and it just looked tatty. I suspect that most would do the same and that therefore this would remove any risk if failure along a length which is surely going to occur morre in the long term. Failure is FAR more likely at terminals and talurits where the PVC has usually been removed anyway so I can't see what these racing scrutineers are worrying about.
Bare wire is more likely to bring about personal injury than PVC coating - i know, my last boat had bare wire and every member of the family had an incident at one time or another.
I'll stay with PVC thanks and take any guidance to change from my insurers rather than some self appointed "expert" of dubious qualification slopping his way around the committee rooms of some third rate yacht club in his nasty smelly mildewed deck shoes and faded pink trousers. He probably wouldn't consider changing his guardwires from generation to generation.
Steve Cronin
...why should the various yacht racing authorities ban it? Curious.
I watched a skippered charter boat owner strip the pvc from his 52 Beneteau in seconds last year because he couldn't face the cost (over £1000) of replacing the covered wires for cosmetic reasons. It was fully bright underneath with not even the signs of any corrosion after seven years.
I replaced my top wires at three years (Lowers to go this winter courtesy of TCS Rigging) because the PVC had succumed to Med. UV and it just looked tatty. I suspect that most would do the same and that therefore this would remove any risk if failure along a length which is surely going to occur morre in the long term. Failure is FAR more likely at terminals and talurits where the PVC has usually been removed anyway so I can't see what these racing scrutineers are worrying about.
Bare wire is more likely to bring about personal injury than PVC coating - i know, my last boat had bare wire and every member of the family had an incident at one time or another.
I'll stay with PVC thanks and take any guidance to change from my insurers rather than some self appointed "expert" of dubious qualification slopping his way around the committee rooms of some third rate yacht club in his nasty smelly mildewed deck shoes and faded pink trousers. He probably wouldn't consider changing his guardwires from generation to generation.
Steve Cronin
apcheval
New member
Plastimo make a plastic guardrail called "Parafil". It is suppled in two external sizes, 4mm 500kg braking load and 7mm 1000kg breaking load. Terminal fittings for Parafil guardrail is also available.
I have not used this before but amd thinking of fitting it to my 39' boat. Has anyone any experience with Parafil?
I have not used this before but amd thinking of fitting it to my 39' boat. Has anyone any experience with Parafil?
PuffTheMagicDragon
Active member
Re: If it isn\'t potentially dangerous.....
[ QUOTE ]
...why should the various yacht racing authorities ban it? Curious.
... Failure is FAR more likely at terminals and talurits where the PVC has usually been removed anyway so I can't see what these racing scrutineers are worrying about.
Bare wire is more likely to bring about personal injury than PVC coating - i know, my last boat had bare wire and every member of the family had an incident at one time or another.
I'll stay with PVC thanks and take any guidance to change from my insurers rather than some self appointed "expert" of dubious qualification slopping his way around the committee rooms of some third rate yacht club in his nasty smelly mildewed deck shoes and faded pink trousers. He probably wouldn't consider changing his guardwires from generation to generation.
Steve Cronin
[/ QUOTE ]
The requirement for no close covering is not cosmetic. The first signs of impending failure of a stainless steel wire are 'meat-hooks' - parted strands - that are impossible to see if they are covered with 'cosmetic' pvc.
If someone is gashed by such a meathook on my boat it would only happen twice before the wire is replaced - the first time and the last time. Any owner / skipper who permits such a situation has no regard for the safety of his crew.
Scrutineers. Here I can only speak of offshore racing lasting several days and not a round-the-cans jolly. Most / all important offshore races are held under ISAF regulations and these regulations deal with safety The purpose of scrutineering is not to show how clever the scrutineers are. It is to draw the attention of the skipper or his representative to the deficiencies of his boat vis-a-vis the ISAF (and frequently RORC) requirements. At the end of the exercise the skipper will sign a declaration that the responsibility of deciding to start, or continue, racing rests squarely on his shoulders and that ISAF, RORC, the organisers or the sponsors will not be held liable. (This legal requirement came about largely following the disastrous Sydney Hobart of a few years back when some competitor(s) claimed that the organisers should not have let them race in those conditions and proceeded to sue!)
A scrutineer will not fail a competitor because he has no white flares (not used in most of europe) or because he does not have a trysail but has a fourth deep reef. All would be noted on the inspection sheet of which the skipper is given a copy and is told to remedy if possible. Rusty lifejacket cylinders? You would be surprised how many are found each year, even on maxis. They are noted and I quietly tell the guy that it will not be me out there in the dark on a wet sloping foredeck; I would be at home or doing bridge....
In many years of involvement I have only twice prevented a boat from competing and, in both cases, the race committee agreed with me that the boat was not seaworthy enough for a Category 2 race.
Incidentally (1) I don't have smelly deck shoes, (2) I don't wear pink trousers and (3) my guardwires do not have a single break in them.
Finally, if you wish to judge for yourself whether the club is 'third-rate' or not, I suggest that you pay a visit to <span style="color:red"> our club </span>
[ QUOTE ]
...why should the various yacht racing authorities ban it? Curious.
... Failure is FAR more likely at terminals and talurits where the PVC has usually been removed anyway so I can't see what these racing scrutineers are worrying about.
Bare wire is more likely to bring about personal injury than PVC coating - i know, my last boat had bare wire and every member of the family had an incident at one time or another.
I'll stay with PVC thanks and take any guidance to change from my insurers rather than some self appointed "expert" of dubious qualification slopping his way around the committee rooms of some third rate yacht club in his nasty smelly mildewed deck shoes and faded pink trousers. He probably wouldn't consider changing his guardwires from generation to generation.
Steve Cronin
[/ QUOTE ]
The requirement for no close covering is not cosmetic. The first signs of impending failure of a stainless steel wire are 'meat-hooks' - parted strands - that are impossible to see if they are covered with 'cosmetic' pvc.
If someone is gashed by such a meathook on my boat it would only happen twice before the wire is replaced - the first time and the last time. Any owner / skipper who permits such a situation has no regard for the safety of his crew.
Scrutineers. Here I can only speak of offshore racing lasting several days and not a round-the-cans jolly. Most / all important offshore races are held under ISAF regulations and these regulations deal with safety The purpose of scrutineering is not to show how clever the scrutineers are. It is to draw the attention of the skipper or his representative to the deficiencies of his boat vis-a-vis the ISAF (and frequently RORC) requirements. At the end of the exercise the skipper will sign a declaration that the responsibility of deciding to start, or continue, racing rests squarely on his shoulders and that ISAF, RORC, the organisers or the sponsors will not be held liable. (This legal requirement came about largely following the disastrous Sydney Hobart of a few years back when some competitor(s) claimed that the organisers should not have let them race in those conditions and proceeded to sue!)
A scrutineer will not fail a competitor because he has no white flares (not used in most of europe) or because he does not have a trysail but has a fourth deep reef. All would be noted on the inspection sheet of which the skipper is given a copy and is told to remedy if possible. Rusty lifejacket cylinders? You would be surprised how many are found each year, even on maxis. They are noted and I quietly tell the guy that it will not be me out there in the dark on a wet sloping foredeck; I would be at home or doing bridge....
In many years of involvement I have only twice prevented a boat from competing and, in both cases, the race committee agreed with me that the boat was not seaworthy enough for a Category 2 race.
Incidentally (1) I don't have smelly deck shoes, (2) I don't wear pink trousers and (3) my guardwires do not have a single break in them.
Finally, if you wish to judge for yourself whether the club is 'third-rate' or not, I suggest that you pay a visit to <span style="color:red"> our club </span>
boguing
Active member
Once again, Parafil was excluded from offshore racing in 1978/9. Used to work for Oyster in those days, and of course, we had miles of it in our stores. Gave it away. Could be some of that is still for sale.
Chaps, this is last resort safety we're discussing, and you want the boat to look nice?
Chaps, this is last resort safety we're discussing, and you want the boat to look nice?
steve_cronin
N/A
Re: If it isn\'t potentially dangerous.....
[ QUOTE ]
The requirement for no close covering is not cosmetic. The first signs of impending failure of a stainless steel wire are 'meat-hooks' - parted strands - that are impossible to see if they are covered with 'cosmetic' pvc....
....Incidentally (1) I don't have smelly deck shoes, (2) I don't wear pink trousers and (3) my guardwires do not have a single break in them.
[/ QUOTE ]
PVC coater guardwires are made of 1x17 wire where yuor "meathooks" would be far less likely to happen and in a straight run, almost unheard of - these are more usually caused in 7x7 or 7x19 where the individual strands are far more susceptible to damage of fatigue fractures. Such wire being used for backstay tensioners and halyards of course where flexibility and the need to be able to run over a sheave are required.
I am also very pleased to hear about your pedal hygiene and sartorial tastes not to mention being greatly relieved to hear that your guardwires are up to the job - I would expect nothing less on a seaworthy and insurable vessel.
Steve cronin
[ QUOTE ]
The requirement for no close covering is not cosmetic. The first signs of impending failure of a stainless steel wire are 'meat-hooks' - parted strands - that are impossible to see if they are covered with 'cosmetic' pvc....
....Incidentally (1) I don't have smelly deck shoes, (2) I don't wear pink trousers and (3) my guardwires do not have a single break in them.
[/ QUOTE ]
PVC coater guardwires are made of 1x17 wire where yuor "meathooks" would be far less likely to happen and in a straight run, almost unheard of - these are more usually caused in 7x7 or 7x19 where the individual strands are far more susceptible to damage of fatigue fractures. Such wire being used for backstay tensioners and halyards of course where flexibility and the need to be able to run over a sheave are required.
I am also very pleased to hear about your pedal hygiene and sartorial tastes not to mention being greatly relieved to hear that your guardwires are up to the job - I would expect nothing less on a seaworthy and insurable vessel.
Steve cronin
nickarrowsmith
New member
Any suggestions for the cheapest source of white PVC covered lifeline wire, my usual supplier of things rigging (S3i) will only sell a 500M drum and I only need about 30.
Hi There,
We will supply this wire for you - if you want us to find you a length of around 50m - please let us know and we'll get hold of it for you!
Cheers
Nick
www.s3i.co.uk
Hi There,
We will supply this wire for you - if you want us to find you a length of around 50m - please let us know and we'll get hold of it for you!
Cheers
Nick
www.s3i.co.uk
