Pushed beyond the limit (saily}

[Davy_S]

Purely out of curiosity as to different yacht types. Imagine you are on a beam reach, you are carrying full sail, inshore with offshore wind so flat sea. OK the wind increases untill it over presses your boat, you cannot reef or feather sails ect. You have to hang on at all cost and try to keep the course. So my question is what happens to your yacht. Ie does the rudder lose grip and the boat round up, or does it heel further until toerail under? Then what! Please state yacht type and if you have done it or it is your opinion. Bitching and humor welcome /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[Decrepit_Mariner]

When overpressed:

CONTESSA 26 -lee gunnel would go under, just get faster and faster - great

NEWBRIDGE NAVIGATOR- fight the tiller like crazy, leeway for England, but would keep going

FEELING 960 - always sailed with half the coach roof under. Tiller under the chin. Rudder lifted. Broach and round up regularly - often right through the wind. What a boat! Could only recommend to the mother-in-law

Westerly GRIFFON - very docile - keeps going starts to make leeway and heavish helm when really pressed. May eventually and slowly round up

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[Neraida]

Beneteau First Class 8

Lee rail under all the time, faster and faster till dramatic broach with rudder flapping in the breeze and boom in the water. FC8's have a heavy tiller at the best of times, but gets mad just before it lifts. Smashing fun, steady 10-11knts on a beam reach, bit faster with more crew on the windward rail.

Yes, we have done this on several occasions.

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[Sybarite]

I really take exception to your comments about the Feeling 960 (which is really a 920 with a longer scoop at the back). They are wonderful boats to sail - if you know how. There is no advantage though in keeping more sail up than is necessary. I know it is not the assumption of the thread but they sail so well you can reef really early and still overtake most other boats on the water. I have often overtaken others with just the genoa up.

If you were sitting with the tiller under your chin then you were not sailing her properly.

If you don't ease the main sheet in a squall she will round up but easing it is the simple thing to do. I would really prefer to be out in a blow in a boat that I know will make to windward in a Force 8 - I have done it - than some of the other ones you mention.

John


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[Salty]

Ho ho, didn't take long to get someone upset on this thread did it?

Most things I've sailed will tip a toe-rail in the water and behave reasonably predictably when it all gets a bit much. My Ben35 can be a bit of a handful short-handed, but then its got a lot of sail and a lot of interior volume - most AWBs are a little like this - oops, sorry Sybarite.

Most fun would be the J105 I used to race - you'd have the assymetric kite up in these conditions, with all the crew on the weather rail, hopefully gorillas, and most with tactical bits of string in their hands for when it all goes pear-shaped. And hopefully with a new re-inforced carbon pole to replace the original one that showed the tensile properties of a stick of rock the last time you tried this...



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[Chris_Robb]

Victory 40 long keel ketch - Van de standt.

on a reach is happy with full sail till 25 knots of wind - lee rail near going under at that point. Speed 9 knots. Helm - none. effort to steer - one finger. I have never managed to broach her or even near.

Time however to reduce sail as speed will deterioate above this angle of heel - however - helm never increases.

Broad reech with spinnaker - - have had full sail in 40 knots over deck when caught in squall - 10 knots on clock - again no helm. I have had the spinnaker up to 26 knots apparent - again no tendancy at all to broach - just rolls a bit. Dont know what speed we had because the log packed up!



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[Magic_Sailor]

Jeanneau Fantasia 27

You do have to concentrate quite hard as windspeed increases - moving the car down the mainsheet track as weather helm increases, then reef - car back to the middle and so on. Then she sails just fine with one finger on the tiller in F6.

Failure to do this will cause the rudder to lose grip and round up time!

Recently sailing in Southern Sailing School Yamaha 33 with full main and No.2 genoa, close hauled into F7; the helm was a bit heavy, lee rail under but she kept going OK.

Magic

Magic

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[Ohdrat]

Jeannie circa 1980 34' broach, rudder completely out of the water, so no weight on helm, managed to scare RYA yachtmaster tutor out of the galley and into cockpit, cockpit perpendicular to water, crew abseiling up to "top" of cockpit, luckily safety lines attached, was achieved with a cruising chute when a fierce gust hit boat powering down off highground inshore so no tell tale ruffles on water.. just wham.

60 ft schooner, shoal draft gaff rig, all fair weather sails flying.. Leeway equal to forward movement! not a big drama but if stiffer might have blown a sail out or two, luckily heaps of sea room, helm heavy...very heavy.

38ft Westerly tank thing.. deep fin keel.. managed to scare crew and generate some expletives from me as I had suggested we put in a reef or two before leaving harbour, heeled right over.. log read 13 knots, lots of shouting on board and some language that would have made Bernard Manning blush, cheers from passengers on nearby ferry and a near severed finger when crew got in a twist with a winch.

 

[Jeremy_W]

Beneteau 337, Jeanneau Oceanis 350, Sigma 33 and Jeanneau Fantasia all broached! Rival 34 and VdS Seacracker develop a lot of load on the tiller with the rail well under but keep on trucking.

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[Heckler]

pwllheli a couple of weeks ago bene 351, offshore wind, 2 reefs in main, 2 in genoa 5-6 force, 7.5 knots on the gps, notice grey thing coming towards us, all of a sudden all my weight on wheel putting opposite lock on, trying to round up, hailstones and horizontal rain, roy and mo (20 yrs experience) were with us newbies, roy eased the main (one of the sail sliders snapped as it hit) pretty quickly and we tooled along with me trying to hide my head in the oily hood. 35 knots on the maximum thingy in the club wind speed. what we learned was basically if you get hit let the main sheet go, which takes the pressure off you while you then sort things out. was superb fun but only cause we had some one on board who had knew what they were doing.
stu

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[ianwright]

A Vertue, traditional long keel, will sail well with the rail well under, a little more weather helm than normal. Pushed further lee-way increases, speed (vmg) reduces.
in the real world best to reef if going below involves standing in the sink or on the chart table.

IanW

<hr width=100% size=1>Vertue 203, Patience

 

[Aeolus_IV]

Centurion 32 (a lot like the Contessa 32) - In my experience just heels further and further, getting quicker and quicker. Eventually the rudder must leave the water, but you'll be easing the sails longer before this. As for the helm, it does seem to get heavier, but since it starts off lighter than most it never gets too heavy to handle. Its fun watching other crew fighing their boats in these conditions.

Jeff.

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[Evadne]

Elizabethan 29
Oldie, long keel, similar to Twister or Stella but with a long counter stern. As with these the lee rail digs further in and she goes faster until the mast gets too horizontal and the drive goes out of the sail. Weather helm gets stronger. Another 29 owner, Andrew Marshall, reckons she isn't going well until you can see mullet through the cabin windows.

I was once approaching North Fambridge marina with the full main & genoa up on a close reach in a F4-5 and the log said 9 knots, which ain't bad for a 20' waterline, but rather scary at the time.

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[kingfisher]

Dauphin 21 double chined bilge keeler: would develop heavy (and I mean two arms full weight behind it, breaking helm at one point) weather helm, and would happily broach in gusts.

Halcyon 23: Let me just say that at one point we were on such an angle that my friend was helming, and I was standing on the outside of the hull, holding the standing rigging. That thing was fun to sail.

Sirocco 31: Angus Primrose is a genius. i reef when the footrail gets wet, but if I want to push it, I can smile at the fish from inside the boat through the portholes. I was unreefed following a Moody with the first reef in the main and full genoa. The Moody broached violently twice, I didn't bat an eyelid. Not supprising as 2tons of balast in a 1m70 keel keeps 3 tons of boat happily upright. And a deep rudder keeps it under control.

I just don't believe that a boat which can't be controled should be allowed on the cruising market. Racers do what they like, but a Moody that broaches?

<hr width=100% size=1>Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
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[Robin]

Jeanneau Sun Legende 41 - deep fin, not especially short
In practice we have a full width coachroof traveller so can open the main like a barn door. But to answer your question, we just go faster and faster up to a point and then stick at about 9kts, with much less sail we would still do 9kts and probably a bit more. Would round up on autopilot but with someone on the wheel it would take an awful lot of wind, we have a very big rudder, deep fin and big wheel. The wheel remains very light at all times.

Westerly 33 Ketch - fin, longish
In practice, easily reached mainsheet by the wheel. Otherwise faster up to a point but VERY heavy wheel, eventually would round up gently, less so if the mizzen was up as well.

Elizabethan 30 - longish fin
Same as W33 but tiller heavy, especially if lifted as the rudder shaft is angled aft and you lose leverage.

Can't remember any farther back!






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[MrG]

I can remember 2 particular occassions when we were over canvassed...

1st was off the west coast of Mull in a Moody 31...she just lent over, lost her grip and rounded up.

2nd in a Jen Sun Odessy 40 off the south coast, which pretty well did the same
We find that keeping weather helm to a minimun makes a lt of difference. With in-mast reefing we can get the sails so well balanced that occasionally she steers herself...

Mark

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[Shanty]

Albin Ballad

Normally, she won't heel past 20 degrees. Goes that far, & no further.

Just after I bought her, we were caught out under full sail by a 40 knot squall. On a close reach she heeled until the winches were in the water, but kept tracking like she was on rails. The helm was slightly heavier than normal. I don't think broaches had been invented when these boats were designed.

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[andy_wilson]

Bitching and Humour (silly)

OK So long keelers with narrow hulls will tend to stand up to gusts without tacking through 180.

They're no good in a marina (if you can get into one without reversing into something) and you can't take as many mates sailing with you.

Thing is, who sails so close to the shore that they can't luff up and take in a reef? Or bear away onto a run under main only (let headsail fly) to gain some sea room (OK them using the 'by the beach' entry to Poole excepted.

I suppose it's the same people who have rod kickers so they can't scandalise the main and kill it dead.

Scandalous

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[dulcibella]

No-backstay Legend - would round up and sail you onto the beach if you didn't dump the main in time.

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Heavenly Twins 26.

Slide sideways a bit until I can investigate and remedy overcanvassing. Pick up coffee where left on bench by helm.

Carry on.

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<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

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