Protection product test

[thinwater]

Firstly apologies everyone for the short delay in the test - my partner and daughter invaded my project space and replaced it with a giant Christmas tree! The cheek!
Hope to have the panels completed this week and set them free to the big outdoors.


Thinwater, that sounds an interesting test, do you have a link to the work or a blog perhaps? I would be interested in following you on that.

Just a few thought on it:
Vinyl and gel coat are two completely different animals and I understand your issues and the potential problems with testing various products on such a material.

"uncoated samples will fog in the rain if the product does not block water"
Yes, and for this reason alone it governs the approach on what products will work at protecting and what will degrade the material faster.

If one was to sandwich the vinyl between two sheets of glass and seal the edges, I doubt moisture would be an issue. This is in effect what we are attempting to do with an application product, though vinyl and gel coat are chalk and cheese.

With vinyl, the degradation (IMHO) comes from the application of products where the main active ingredient has been broken down with petroleum distillates in order for it to be applied.

These petroleum distillates are accepted easily into the material as indeed the water and moisture are and will accelerate the breakdown of the vinyl much faster than an the un-treated.

So we would assume from this that your un-treated control would fair better than the treated.

If however you had a product that was capable of sealing off to oxygen / moisture but didn't contain breakdown ingredients, then you would have a superior protection product for vinyl.


Gel coat does accept water and moisture, although this is usually whilst up against water for long periods, the membrane is much tighter and osmosis will take some time compared to vinyl.



The relevance of gloss and beading:

Gloss is simple a measure of what is going on at the surface level, we needn't wait until the entire depth of a material is compromised, we just look at the surface.

The beading gives us a visual aid to coverage on that invisible layer of glass we applied to seal off from oxygen / inhibit UV.

Beading or surface tension has far more important qualities and roles to play than this, but the ability to see when the protection has been exhausted is a good visual aid.

Would be interested to know what products you are using in the test?


Tony

Mostly, I was just commiserating with your project. You have a lot of hard work ahead of you, and I know first hand just how much! Thank you.

Yes, there are certainly differences. No, unfortunately I cannot blog too freely on this as it is for publication (Practical Sailor Magazine). However, I do put cut down versions of stuff on my blog from time to time:
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/

a. Very few of the products contain petroleum. That would disqualify them from consideration for the reasons you stated. In fact, at 3 years no product I have tested had any negative effects. Some have accumulated micro scratches; no mater how careful you are, after years of regular cleaning the occasional bit of grit is rubbed about and vinyl is soft. But none of this can be blamed on the products, only on me. Just as an occasional buff keeps gelcoat looking fresh, hands off seems to be better for vinyl, since it is very scratch prone.

b. Fogging is only a factor on un-coated vinyl. Coated premium products (O'Sea, Strataglass) are not affected. They have a thin polyurethane film, which can be removed by excessive buffing (compounding), which may product a smooth finish, but will then be prone to fogging.

c. The relative durability of the coated vs. uncoated vinyl is a good question. It seems the coating may at least double the life of the vinyl, making the price premium much less painful than years of waxing. Additionally, a coated product that is NOT cleaned an buffed will not be at risk of scratching, further increasing life.

d. I'm not sure I agree that beading correlates to oxygen exclusion or UV protection. Beading has to do with hydrophobic surface energy, while the other 2 are not at all related to that. Second, beading does not closely related to vapor transmission; consider durable water repellent finishes that are applied to garments, which bead waster but do not stop vapor. Yes, the surface topography is much different, but we have not proven causality, and in fact, the finishes that bead water best are NOT the best at preventing vinyl fogging. In brief, without other evidence, there is no reason to believe that either gloss or beading correlate well to water, oxygen, or UV exclusion. They might, but mostly it would be coincidence, in my opinion. As for manufacturer claims, I don't believe much.

e. Now that I think about it, the best test for UV would probably be on a paint that we knew faded quickly in the sun. Perhaps a red urethane alkyd. Try that! Gel coat is simply too durable. The other thing you might try is upping the UV exposure with 24/7 lamps. I have been using heated UV chambers for some of my testing; 10:1 time compression is practical.

 

[Marine Reflections]

Mostly, I was just commiserating with your project. You have a lot of hard work ahead of you, and I know first hand just how much! Thank you.

Yes, there are certainly differences. No, unfortunately I cannot blog too freely on this as it is for publication (Practical Sailor Magazine). However, I do put cut down versions of stuff on my blog from time to time:
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/

a. Very few of the products contain petroleum. That would disqualify them from consideration for the reasons you stated. In fact, at 3 years no product I have tested had any negative effects. Some have accumulated micro scratches; no mater how careful you are, after years of regular cleaning the occasional bit of grit is rubbed about and vinyl is soft. But none of this can be blamed on the products, only on me. Just as an occasional buff keeps gelcoat looking fresh, hands off seems to be better for vinyl, since it is very scratch prone.

b. Fogging is only a factor on un-coated vinyl. Coated premium products (O'Sea, Strataglass) are not affected. They have a thin polyurethane film, which can be removed by excessive buffing (compounding), which may product a smooth finish, but will then be prone to fogging.

c. The relative durability of the coated vs. uncoated vinyl is a good question. It seems the coating may at least double the life of the vinyl, making the price premium much less painful than years of waxing. Additionally, a coated product that is NOT cleaned an buffed will not be at risk of scratching, further increasing life.

d. I'm not sure I agree that beading correlates to oxygen exclusion or UV protection. Beading has to do with hydrophobic surface energy, while the other 2 are not at all related to that. Second, beading does not closely related to vapor transmission; consider durable water repellent finishes that are applied to garments, which bead waster but do not stop vapor. Yes, the surface topography is much different, but we have not proven causality, and in fact, the finishes that bead water best are NOT the best at preventing vinyl fogging. In brief, without other evidence, there is no reason to believe that either gloss or beading correlate well to water, oxygen, or UV exclusion. They might, but mostly it would be coincidence, in my opinion. As for manufacturer claims, I don't believe much.

e. Now that I think about it, the best test for UV would probably be on a paint that we knew faded quickly in the sun. Perhaps a red urethane alkyd. Try that! Gel coat is simply too durable. The other thing you might try is upping the UV exposure with 24/7 lamps. I have been using heated UV chambers for some of my testing; 10:1 time compression is practical.

Very interesting, thank you!

re the commiserations, fortunately this is one of my passions and self inflicted.

As per norm, easy to pick up a subject and apply what one knows with readily available information, the more you try to encompass all the variables the harder it is to master.
My current 'other interest' thanks to a forumite is in fluid dynamics and its relationship with surface tension. Wish I had test facilities.

a. Hands off for vinyl indeed, I try to adopt the same principle with all surfaces, but I'm usually accused of being over pedantic.

b. Agree, I see it often and the blame for early degradation can easily be traced back to correction 'cleaner' type products removing the layer.

c, Yes, the initial price would certainly be justified, there are self healing films for paint protection. I've not gone into it really for vinyl but would have thought this might be a further premium option.

d, I completely agree that beading and gloss does not correlate to oxygen exclusion or UV protection on vinyl.

Moving down down the list of vinyl surface requirements though, beading would have a effect on how easily the surface was able to be cleaned.

If the surface was hydrophilic and accepting guests then the cleaning would be difficult and drying to eliminate dried water marks would be a chore.
If the surface was more hydrophobic and rejecting pollutants / contaminates, this would aid the pre-cleaning / removal of contaminates on a more hands free manner. This would certainly reduce the amount of cleaning scratches.

That said however, I have for a while been looking into the difference between a hydrophilic state and a hydrophobic one for the coating of hull sides that are only offered a rinse down after a salt water outing and not dried.
Of course the solution is to rinse down in treated pure water if you don't have full access to the area and allow the droplets to evaporate without TDS remaining.

But for normal pontoon water, considering the water can either remain on the surface in the form of beads or run off through the surface being hydrophilic, you have to think which is the better option for vertical surfaces.
Some of the protections that are low in hydrophobic properties yet are high in UV inhibitors are ideal for hull sides.

e. certainly a better test for the UV aspect yes and did consider lamps or shipping the treated panels out into a more UV intense county.

I'm finding myself guilty of drifting my own thread

Will follow your blog, hope you would give me a heads up when full publication is out in the mag, that would be an interesting read from the sound of it.

Tony

 

[Marine Reflections]

OK, so on panel number 11 we have -

GRP surface sealant from AGlaze

What it says on the tin
High performance protection for all GRP surfaces + instructions.

Available at
Marineaglaze.com

Price
£29.99

Quantity
100ml

Cleaning / correctional qualities
None stand alone protection product.

Preparing the panel
AGlaze recommend using their product SMR prior to application of the GRP sealant.

Work the SRP over the surface and buff.

On opening
Plastic bottle with twist top lid

Contents
The GRP sealant is a thin liquid.

Application
Wipe on a small amount with supplied application cloth, wait to haze (5 mins) then wipe on another coat and allow to haze.

Plenty of application cloth for £2, I just cut off a small amount for the test panel.

Removing excess
Quick mist of water and buff off any excess with microfibre to a shine.

Testing repellency
Water is beading very well on the surface. I would put the beading at 9 out of 10.

Comments
Goes a very long way, the small amount applied to the cloth seemed to go on forever.

 

[thinwater]

You are dead right about cleaning. One product (Starbrite View Guard) seems particularly good in this regard. It also seems to improve sheeting and thus view. And less cleaning means less touching!

Perhaps you could rig up UV on just a few. Perhaps a control, a poor product, and a few favorites. Just a thought. One thing I did to "calibrate" the process was to put some whipping twine in the chamber, which I knew would loose about 15% strength per year outdoors. If the whipping twine lost XX (turned out to be about 15%) in a month, I could call that a year. Pretty cheap to set up, if you skip the heat. Just some black light bulbs. Maybe about 10 lumens/ft2.

 

[Trundlebug]

Tony,

Very interesting so far, thanks for all your efforts.
Just taking slight issue with your conclusions on beading, the photos don't seem to endorse your verdict on Autoglym (8/10) compared to A Glaze which you rated 9/10.
The Autoglym beads appear to stand much higher in the photos?

 

[Marine Reflections]

Thank you!

Yes, you are quite right, they are different, but really it's my fault for not having the camera at the same angle, some pictures are with the camera higher and at a closer distance, lighting set up etc.

Also I've rated the beading after playing with droplets on the surface, tilting the panel at an angle and watching how the beads roll etc, all very difficult to catch on camera. I've a gopro 4 that has been running whilst photographing, but can't seem to get it to work too well at close up pics.

When we come to evaluate after their first washes, I will ensure the camera position is the same throughout, same with distance, lighting etc.

So my apologies, it certainly is off in the pics, I'm off to the end of the garden to thrash myself with some silver birch.

 

[bigwow]

So my apologies, it certainly is off in the pics, I'm off to the end of the garden to thrash myself with some silver birch.

I think you have got your forums mixed up.:encouragement:

 

[Marine Reflections]

Solved the beading picture issue by purchasing a Polar Pro macro lens for the gopro4 camera.

I've put all the panels together and video'd each section whilst water is sprayed on. This way we can see the beading of each instead of commenting on them or grading them out of 10.

The video has been done and includes all 15, so instead of ranking the remaining 4 products I will let the video do the talking and I'll keep out of it.

Just to point out the relevance to beading and why it's even being included.

Beading (as Thinwater has mentioned) does not correlate to preventing oxygen from getting to the surface, nor does it prevent UV exposure.

So why are we looking at it and not waiting for the results of a years exposure.
Well, not only does it give us a good indication of when that particular product needs re-applying, if beading high at application then a month later it's flat, we know that product beads for about a month, not to say however that it has stopped protecting from oxygen and preventing UV damage, but simply it has stopped beading.
If you want the surfaces to be beading then it's re-application time.

Its main function (beading) is interaction with other elements on the surface, namely water and dirt.

When the surface is beading 'high' it will be easily cleaned and far safer for the surface, dirt will find it hard to cling to a surface that is rejecting.

Picture a layer of dust over the surfaces, when the surfaces are 'performing' (for want of a better word) it is easily hosed off before being actually washed with sponge etc as the beads float the dirt.
So the bigger parts of the grit are picked up and washed away with the rolling beads.
This also happens with the rain, the rain drops find it easier to roll the dirt and dust off.

This is no different to the treated non-stick concept on a frying pan, when you first put water in the pan you are amazed that it rolls around like mercury, but many bacon sarnies and washes later it's back to being a normal pan.
It's all well and good to be beading at first, but it's how long it can maintain its condition that is of value. All non-stick pans are not equal.

Also as the surface is rejecting and your drying microfibre is accepting, surfaces are much easier to dry as the microfibre sucks up all the beads.

So that's why we're looking at the beading, but just to say again it does not correlate to the overall protection, just its interaction.
Should be able to put the last 4 products up this eve.

Tony

 

[Marine Reflections]

On panel 12 we have – Dulon Marine 1 & 2

What it says on the tin
Gives a long lasting high gloss armor protection. + Decent instructions

Available at
Dulon.com

Price
€34.95

Quantity
2 x 500ml

Cleaning / correctional qualities
None stand alone protection product.

Preparing the panel
Dulon recommend pre-dulon

On opening
Plastic bottle with twist top lid

Contents
Thin cream

Application
Wipe on Dulon 1 with a damp sponge, allow to haze but don’t buff off yet. Apply Dulon 2 directly onto the haze, again with a damp sponge. Wait for it to dry completely and then buff.

Comments
Despite the difference in application it was easy to apply.

 

[Marine Reflections]

On panel 13 we have – Autoglym’s Extra Gloss Protection

What it says on the tin
Extra Gloss Protection is a durable, easy to use sealant that forms a barrier, sealing polish in and dirt out.

Available at
Autoglym.com

Price
£10.99

Quantity
325ml

Cleaning / correctional qualities
None stand alone protection product.

Preparing the panel
Autoglym recommend Super resin polish

On opening
Plastic bottle with twist top lid

Contents
Thin liquid

Application
Apply a thin even layer with a soft cloth, allow to dry for 30minutes and then buff with microfiber.

Comments
Simple to apply, low price.

 

[Marine Reflections]

On panel 14 we have – C1 & Exo from Gtechniq

What it says on the tin
Application instructions & safety recommendations

Available at
Gtechniq.com

Price
C1 £42.50
Exo £39.95

Quantity
30ml of each

Cleaning / correctional qualities
None stand alone protection product.

Preparing the panel
Gtechniq recommend cleaning the surface with their panel wipe.

On opening
Glass bottles with twist top lid and safety delivery system

Contents
Thin clear liquid

Application
See website for detailed instructions and I strongly advise you do so to ensure best results.
Apply the C1 with a soft applicator pad, buff 30 seconds to a minute after applying with a high quality microfiber.
Allow the C1 to cure for 2 hours before applying Exo and no longer than 12 hours after.
Application is the same as C1, remove near on straight away after applying.
Allow to cure fully for 12 hours before getting surface wet.

Comments
Seems complicated to apply, but simply it’s remembering to remove the excess product straight away rather than waiting for it to haze, simple!

 

[Marine Reflections]

And… lastly on panel 15 we have – Nanotol sealant from CeNano

What it says on the tin
Liquid surface protection for all solid and porous materials in daily life. (Sample bottles)

Available at
Nanotol.de

Price
€59.90
For primer and sealant

Quantity
250ml of each

Cleaning / correctional qualities
None stand alone protection product.

Preparing the panel
Dilute some of the Primer 1:25 to 1:200 depending on degree of soiling.

On opening
Plastic bottles with spray delivery

Contents
Thin clear liquid

Application
Spray on the sealant, wait to dry then activate with supplied microfiber.

Comments
Easy application, multiple materials.

 

[Marine Reflections]

So that's all the products involved in the comparison. They will now be released into the wild.

Just to recap, this is the full line up.

Just need to edit the beading video, will pop it up asap.

Next stage will be early February where we'll be washing with each companies recommended wash down product and re-evaluating the beading.

Once again a huge thank you to the following for their help and support in bringing us this comparison.

Carol Branson - Ship Shape Norfolk (Collinite)

Amy Chappell - GTECHNIQ

Kees den Haan - Dulon International

Mike Friedrich - CeNano

Mark Docherty - Autoglym

Martyn Bridge - International Paint Ltd (Akzonoble)

James Oakey - Bullet Polish Europe Ltd

Dale Masterman - Meguiar's

Brian Robinson - 3M Marine

Michael Bollom &
Clive Hancock - A Glaze Marine Products

Steve Simpson - Farecla

 

[Marine Reflections]

 

[KAL]

Amazing project. Thanks for carrying it out. Wow.

 

[Marine Reflections]

Amazing project. Thanks for carrying it out. Wow.

Thank you KAL!

Forgot to mention; the control panel (untreated for comparison) is also going to be split into 3 sections.

1 section left completely untouched, 1 section has been compounded but not fine polished so has swirl marks left in place and the other has deeper cleaning scratches.

So we will also be able to see the rates of degradation on just these 3 factors also.

 

[Racingfrank7]

Awesome test and well documented keep up the good work Tony.

 

[Andrew M]

Brilliant !

Only just seen this, have no idea how I've missed since it started. A superb bit of work and I can't wait to start seeing some of the results coming through.

Thanks for taking the time/trouble to carry this out.

Andy

 

[st599]

That's a good question.

There is a difference between the gelcoat manufacturers use and you are right, all gel coat is not equal.

For the test I will be making a brand new grp panel and using Scott Bader 65PA Crystic gel coat which has a very good reputation for it's weatherproof abilities

So what exactly is the hypothesis under test? You've admitted a flaw in your test plan. How are you ensuring that the treated materials undergo the same weathering with exactly the same amount of active agent, have the same wear applied etc.

 

[Marine Reflections]

So what exactly is the hypothesis under test? You've admitted a flaw in your test plan. How are you ensuring that the treated materials undergo the same weathering with exactly the same amount of active agent, have the same wear applied etc.

The floor in my test plan is that I don't have test facilities, an electro microscope, UV lamps running 24/7, nor do I own white lab overalls.

It's a simple test of newly gelcoated panels that have had an application on each panel from the mentioned manufacturers.

We are testing the interaction with water (beading) and following the degradation of each panel over the months.

The panels are in a secret (well not secret but only I know where they are) location that ensures they have an equal exposure to the elements, UV, salt water and no doubt other fallout you would expect from a marina environment in the UK.

It's a test that is far from controlled conditions, but I'm going to try to continue to make it as fair as possible and display the results for us all to see.


Tony