Princess or Ferretti , what boat would you choose?

[BartW]

http://www.boatshop24.co.uk/MjA2MTQ3NH5OR0VTMTA=-Cantieri-di-Pisa-Pegasus-24.html

Alf, do you remember the chatt we had about this two years ago

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158391
that beautifull Itama is still for sale

hopefully this year this dream becomes reality

 

[BartW]

here some more boats with an "attitude"

2 years ago, when I discovered this Itame 160, this was the start of my plans for a big boat

this boat is still on the market,
I guess if you offer silly money, you have a deal,
and then 3 months work for a carpenter, a upholsterer, and a painter you will have a beauty
10 berths in a 16m boat !
http://en.cosasdebarcos.com/barco_61897010082869526670675653484548.html


or a Canados 60

http://www.boatshop24.com/en/motor-boats/canados-it-canados-60-2672637

or a Canados 70 for more space

plenty of them on the market
http://www.mondialbroker.com/boat.taf?B=264957&K=SRC


the Cantieri di Pisa from Divemasters post is in my "favourites" sinds very long

also this Hatteras has been lowered in price many times

http://nl.kapaza.be/limburg/motoryacht-hatteras-56-53476549.htm




would love to own one of these beauty's, and so many of them available that a really good bargain could be done,

and then after a year.....
too much trouble with leaking pumps, rotten rubber hoses, smoking engines, stinking fridges, blocked waste disposel tubes, ....
and impossible to get rid of it


so are the P's and the F's with a good survey really the best compromise ?

 

[BartW]

and a few more Canados 70's

http://www.mondialbroker.com/boat.t...om&utm_medium=dynamisch&utm_campaign=AllBoats

or this
http://www.allboats.com/en/7632585/canados-70-1985--used-1985.html

this one has got my attention,
its old, wooden hull, but its beautifull and the stern is perfect for our usage

http://www.allboats.com/en/7627761/canados-70-1984--used-1984.html

 

[AndieMac]

Callum, do you know the weight on these Alloy hull ribs,
how do they compare to GRP ? weight ?
I discovered these Alloy hull ribs a few years back in Palau Micronesia
apparantly popular around the pacific, and down under,
never seen one in Europe

Its the other way round down here Bart (heard that before somewhere ) the alloy floored RIB is very popular, right up to 14 metre monsters with triple and quad installations for fast passenger thrill rides. In fact most dinghies are just alloy, period.

A company called Swift Inflatables (Queensland) made our dinghy, its a Mirage series 4 metres x 2 metres and weighs right on the max. 350 kgs with the motor.
It must be lighter than the equivalent grp offerings.

 

[jfm]

Canados 70's

I love the Canados 70 Bart. Well built boat from a famous yard (now sister company to Oyster yachts, at least it's owned by the same PE fund). Great accommodation and surely your family like the interior on it? There are several of these in Antibes and they still look great at 10+ yrs old

you could make an extra "cabin" (with just a curtain) in the space to starboard of the lower helm where there is currently the small U sofa

The stern is perfect shape for a retro fit up/down platform. like on that USA Sq74 I linked to above. Or just a bigger fixed platform

Maybe a 4.3m RIB + 60yam would fit easily on the flybridge?

 

[BartW]

I love the Canados 70

The stern is perfect shape for a retro fit up/down platform.

well thats a good idea J !!! yes the stern shape is perfect for that.
I was concerned about that ladder / no steps on the stern, but that problem is then solved aswell....(include the necessary mods with the hi lo platform)
and with so much room on the FB, eventually for the tender, ........ best of both worlds,

this boat is a really good offer (370K) compared to some others, same model slightly younger (+500k)
should I be concerned about issues ?

how about that bleu hull, I know that some folks don't like it, and that there are problems with some.
Here in this case it makes the boat more classy, and look younger imho
I like this one !!!

how is this 1080HP 12cyl GM engine compared to a 1100HP Man ?
some GM models have a undistroyable reputation
I hope that Divemaster will come along to share his opinion/experience

the interior looks a little old fashion, but still shows a certain "class" and "Italian style"
I'll try to cultivate the family

 

[AndieMac]

how is this 1080HP 12cyl GM engine compared to a 1100HP Man ?
some GM models have a undistroyable reputation
I hope that Divemaster will come along to share his opinion/experience

the interior looks a little old fashion, but still shows a certain "class" and "Italian style"
I'll try to cultivate the family

A 1979 model Italian Tecnomarine 23 metre with V12 Detroits came into our marina on Friday Bart, part way through a fairly long voyage at sea.
She was triple diagonal planked timber, being an old girl, but in pretty good condition.
The owner just runs her along at 10 knots with the ocasional squirt to lift the revs every now and then. He says he gets quite good economy at the low speeds, and the engines appear quite reliable.

 

[Divemaster1]

Upon request ....

the 92 series indicate 92 Cu In per cylinder... making this a true 18L engine.... and where about 60 Hp is taken out from each Litre... not a real hotrod as they did take out more than 1200 Hp from the same engine...

Like most engines,the killer for these is standing idle ... and over propping... If engine cannot reach max RPM, they will be overloaded with excessive wear as a result.

The real goon news is that these engines will do 40,000 hrs plus ... all be it with a re-build or two... Ratings from the 92 series V12's ranged from about 560 to roundabout 1200 Hp... with the higher HP's being the more sensitive ones... not sensitive in modern engine sense, but more like thay may need a re-build in 2,000 hrs or so if run hard... Other good news s that they are re-buildable with replaceable liners etc., and reasonable parts (all 92 and most 71 series 1 cylto V24's share same parts, which makes parts relatively cheap... and available...).
Keep these at cruising 1800 RPM (2300 Max.)... and you'lll go on what will appear forever !!!Keep them at 1200 ... and they'll outlast your grandchildren.... even better downrate them (simply change injectors) and you will have engines for 10,000 hrs between rebuilds....

Good luck !!

 

[MapisM]

well thats a good idea J !!! yes the stern shape is perfect for that.
I was concerned about that ladder / no steps on the stern, but that problem is then solved aswell....(include the necessary mods with the hi lo platform)

I think you're being a bit optimistic Bart.
It's not just a matter of having a flat, regular transom suitable for the installation of an hydraulic platform.
There are also geometric issues: the platform would still be much lower (even when raised) than the main deck.
Some steps would still be necessary to descend from the cockpit to the platform, and they're bound to be pretty steep. Not exactly what you want to deal with when dressed up with weights, tanks etc.
What would make life much easier is a transom door directly accessing the lower deck of the boat from the swim platform, which is a common feature on modern boats but I don't think would be trivial to arrange on this one.
A good quality yard it is, anyway. I agree with jfm on that.
Good luck for your search!

 

[BartW]

the platform would still be much lower (even when raised) than the main deck.
Some steps would still be necessary to descend from the cockpit to the platform, and they're bound to be pretty steep.

well there are some fine designers on here perhaps they could help me to think about a modification/solution for that, and then decide if it makes sense or not.

I've never investigated the stern /deck section of this Canados in detail,
I'm not sure what kind of work is involved to do these modifs, and if the cost is in relation with the value of the boat.( Rationally speaking not ofcause but if the solution is nice, it doesn't need to be rational, as nothing on a boat is rational)

what surprises me the most, is that there are so many older boats on the market, and some of them are still quite nice (on the PC screen but i'm not sure in real) which means that if I don't like the boat after a while, it will be hard to sell her again. So its very important to make a good choice.


considering all that, are the P's or the F's the best compromise ?
I believe we agree that Canados is in another league ?

Thinking about the Canados, I might hate the higher fuel consumption, associated with the higher desplacement (50T+) and the older generation engines, and us who are used to travel some distances

 

[Bajansailor]

Just a thought on RIBs with aluminium hulls - I know a few boats that have AB ally RIBs and they are very pleased with theirs.

Have a look at http://www.abinflatables.com/i_producto.asp and click on the 'Lammina' range. A 15' (4.57 m) RIB weighs 123 kg.

 

[BartW]

Thanks BJS ! will certainly consider them when.
the 4.88m boat is only 158kg !
coincidently their dealer in south Holland is close to one of our regelar cruising area's

 

[BartW]

after having contacted the broker on this boat, I found out that a really good bargain could be done here
now I have some questions on which some mates on the forum might give their opinion or some good advice;

This boat is a project that needs a lot work to be done
ao
new teak on deck and FB
taking away many layers anti fouling,
"small" anti osmosis threatment,
water ingress on a cabin window,
and then many mods that I would like

questions:
- where is the best place to do such a rebuyld; a boat yard in Italy, Spain ,France, or at the orriginal Buylder (Canados), or bring her closer at home, UK, Holland, Belgium ... ? (the boat is in Italy)

- when they talk about a "small" anti osmosis threatment, does this give indications that the hull is at a really bad state ?

- would you consider such a rebuyld, (after a survey ofcause that you know whats involved) or would you walk away immediatly ?

I 'am just making my mind up if I should fly to Italy to have a look at the boat or not. (Who doesn't want to go to Rome for a day or two )

 

[jfm]

Very interesting! One option is to bring her to UK. Things like the osmosis are easily fixed here at 50% of the price of the med, yet same quality. Eg Ellesar on this forum. Or fly UK team out there. Osmosis isn't the big deal some people say it is and is not a reason not to buy the boat imho. It can be fixed well. Ellesar would also remove the antifoul layers

Window is easy. Teak deck is expensive. It may be 18mm planks laid properly, which is €60k to replace. Or it may be 6-8mm sheets, which is still €40k. You need to see this and figure out if just single planks can be changed, and then the rest sanded. But potentially this is VERY expensive

Definitely worth a trip to Rome! Potentially a stunning boat

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

- where is the best place to do such a rebuyld; a boat yard in Italy, Spain ,France, or at the orriginal Buylder (Canados), or bring her closer at home, UK, Holland, Belgium ... ? (the boat is in Italy)

- when they talk about a "small" anti osmosis threatment, does this give indications that the hull is at a really bad state ?

- would you consider such a rebuyld, (after a survey ofcause that you know whats involved) or would you walk away immediatly ?

I 'am just making my mind up if I should fly to Italy to have a look at the boat or not. (Who doesn't want to go to Rome for a day or two )

If its in the Adriatic, I would recommend Hannibal Marina in Monfalcone http://www.marinahannibal.com/it/cantiere/index.asp#. I was recommended by another forumite to use them for the jobs I wanted doing on my Ferretti and they were excellent. They have a 300t hoist and plenty of workshop and hardstanding space and are perfectly able to carry out work on this size of boat. The Monfalcone area is known for it's shipbuilding skills so all types of craftsmen are there.
As for the 'small osmosis' area, you just dont know until the hull is inspected by an expert. If it is just a few blisters on the transom or the chines, then its not a big job but if one area is badly affected, it could mean grinding the gelcoat off, drying out the hull and reapplying the gelcoat. Not a hugely expensive job but it could take a few weeks. Personally and this is just my opinion, I wouldn't be put off by this as long as the boat is cheap enough in the first place. If you want the boat otherwise and its cheap enough, its got to be worth spending some money on a lift and survey.
The boat looks fab. I've not seen a Canados with a blue hull before. If this is paint rather than gelcoat, you must ask who painted the hull and why

 

[BartW]

thank you all for the reassuring advice !

I've not seen a Canados with a blue hull before. If this is paint rather than gelcoat, you must ask who painted the hull and why

thats a very good tip !

its got to be worth spending some money on a lift and survey.

or a lift IN to test the engines and other wet systems ...
(boat is on land now)

Not a hugely expensive job but it could take a few weeks.

no problem as I allow myself one year, to arrange the boat, the mooring, the paperwork, ... but I'm not sure if I can wait that long

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Btw where are you going to park this enormous boat? Croatia? Porto Montenegro?

 

[BartW]

Btw where are you going to park this enormous boat? Croatia? Porto Montenegro?

if it was that easy I would park her one year in Cavtat and the other year in Cassis.
I'm not sure if available time and the fuel bill are going to change my mind

not to mention about mooringspace availability

 

[BartW]

The boat looks fab. I've not seen a Canados with a blue hull before. If this is paint rather than gelcoat, you must ask who painted the hull and why

More news here,

mike you gave a valid remark !
the boat has been painted blue in 2003 with a two component paint,
the orriginal white looked bad, and the owner wanted bleu....

Is this a disadvantage or not ?
at least I can see how the paint looks after 7 years.

Still concerned about these old engines, they say they have 1500hrs,
Specs say: 23kncruising/28knmax,
but when I look at similar boats for sale, one say’s 20/25 and another 21/26.
I don’t need to cruise at >25kn, but I don’t want to push the engines at maximum revs either,
Slightly younger models have MAN 1100 as opposed to these GM 1040’s ???
any comment is apreciated, thanks !

 

[Divemaster1]

........Still concerned about these old engines, they say they have 1500hrs,
Specs say: 23kncruising/28knmax,
but when I look at similar boats for sale, one say’s 20/25 and another 21/26.
I don’t need to cruise at >25kn, but I don’t want to push the engines at maximum revs either,
Slightly younger models have MAN 1100 as opposed to these GM 1040’s ???
any comment is apreciated, thanks !

Seen Canados 70's with 1100 MAN stating Max 28 as well ... but this may be optimistic. However, a mere 160 HP in difference between the 1040's and 1100's will be virtually un-noticable on such a heavy boat, so would not expect much difference in max speed. The torque on the two strokes are something special, so expect a higher response lower down in the rev range, than with a 4 stroke, so would not be surprised if high cruise would be marginally higher with 1040 DD's than 1100 MAN's.

There will be 1000's of the 92 Series DD around in your area in commercial applications, cranes, ferries, fishing boats etc., and as these engines share the major parts with the 71 series, (1 cyl to V24's), you will find that parts for the DD's may ge be about half of the MAN's.... if that matters to you... (My 71 series injectors (similar to 92 series) cost me approx £47 incl VAT)). And I would expect a large vessel like this to carry a set of comprehensive spares as a default.

Reliability: The 1040 V12's of the 92 series did not get same reliability as the V12 71's ... so you may have to expect a re-build at about 2000 hrs. Good news is that with these engines, you can do full rebuilds!!!

Full rebuilds run at about £15 - 1800 per hole (x 24) by a DD dealer (Think the Canados 70 have V drives, so can engines easily be reomoved for comprehenisve re-builds at dealer, which may be cheaper than in situ work). Now if the boat is good, then knock off the price of a quoted rebuild from the boat cost, and you'll have engines re-built to factory spec.... and with clock reset to zero. Fuel consumption should be about 200g/KWh. when in tune.

Load: These engines thrive on load ... low RPM, and low load is not what they enjoy, so would advise that you draw out min 1200 RPM when you are on the move, to build up the heat in the combustion chamber.... Out of the box, the engines (despite their age) will happily run 24/7 at about 1800 RPM (assume rated at 2300 max), and quite happily at 2 - 2100 for 12hrs plus with no negative impact. (of course assuming that the engine is not overloaded and reaches its intended max load at 2300 RPM.

Due to the facts and ww evidence of DD's two stroke reliability and durability, some mentioned above, coupled with the fact that we were to buy an older boat where engine reliability could be an issue, we actually did make it a condition that there had to be two DD's onboard. (Bought the boat in Italy as you know and had no hesitation considering taking her to NE Scotland under own power).

Cannot comment on MAN's... so will shut up now....