Portsmouth yardstick

[scozzy]

Hi All

For my sins have been roped in to helping out with racing programme this coming season."Racing " probably a loose term in our case!One member has a lovely shrimper 19 and is having trouble finding the py number regardless of where the search leads....Wondering if anyone here can help/knows....cheers in advance

 

[Concerto]

From my searching in the recent past virtually all the Portsmouth Yardstick information for cruisers has been removed from the internet and the RYA no longer maintain records. You could try the RYA to see if they still have the Portsmouth Yardstick ratings on file.

I tried to look up on Wayback Machine for Portsmouth Yardstick and IIRC Byron yacht ratings which had the most comprehensive record of them, but neither were found.

 

[scozzy]

Cheers for that,it seems like it's a common problem!

 

[[194224]]

Any good? An old RYA document but in the absence of anything else, perhaps useful. It has your Shrimper.

http://skysailtraining.co.uk/cruiser_portsmouth_yardstick_2011.pdf

Edit
slightly later one http://www.ospreyiii.co.uk/fsmbcnet5/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/PY-Cruiser-Handicap.pdf

 

[jwilson]

Give it a number, and if it wins every race despite helm being a complete muppet adjust the number till it comes down to near the bottom of the fleet with only ultra-muppets below it. On the other hand if Ainslie or Spithill are helming and they ever lose adjust the handicap the other way. That was always how the yardstick was meant to work.

http://skysailtraining.co.uk/cruiser_portsmouth_yardstick_2011.pdf might be a good start.

 

[Concerto]

Well done in finding the old RYA Portsmouth Yardstick lists as I could not locate any.

 

[scozzy]

thank you gents! Once again the forum is a winner!

 

[Praxinoscope]

Exactly the same problem, except all we need is the sections that give the variations/allowances for difference from base rate, e,g 2 or 3 blade prop, bilge or fin etc.
Used to have a complete set of old PY booklets but were lost in a flood, and replacements seem to be as rare as hens teeth.

 

[MikeCC]

As you've found, PY is fairly well deprecated now. Maybe a bit late for this season, but you could look at moving to YTC. They even publish the formula so you can generate a temporary rating.

No reason not to apply a personal handicap adjustment like NHC was meant to offer. Don't know if the various race software systems have incorporated YTC in the same way yet.

 

[The Q]

I used professor Linda Wolstenholm's work to generate a provisional handicap for my one off boat.
I submitted the spreadsheet to the handicapper, and he accepted it.
Her work is the background to YTC.
Articles | Statistical Modelling

 

[Praxinoscope]

There are I think many who still think that PY was a simple and workable handicapping system, it may have needed a bit of tweaking to take into account some anomalies, but in general it worked well for smaller fleets.

 

[st599]

When I reverse engineered the YTC we were given, we had been assigned a value of 4 out of 5 on the wing keel scale. This year I'll be sending in the measurements as that is rubbish.

 

[Concerto]

Exactly the same problem, except all we need is the sections that give the variations/allowances for difference from base rate, e,g 2 or 3 blade prop, bilge or fin etc.
Used to have a complete set of old PY booklets but were lost in a flood, and replacements seem to be as rare as hens teeth.

Using the 2012 PY list, there are a number of boats with different keel and propeller configurations that should help find a suitable starting adjustment. Select a similar sized boat and see the differences. These are the ones I would suggest looking at, but be aware some are of low reliabilty due to few boats and races included.

Achilles 24 plenty of variants.
Dehler 36 folding/2 blade.
Hanse 300 folding/2 blade.
Hunter Ranger 245 fin/twin and 2 blade/outboard.
Jeanneau Sun 2000 drop/fin and 3 blade/outboard.
MG Spring 25 folding/2 blade/outboard.
Moody 27, 31 and 33 plenty of variants.
Moody S31 fin/twin and folding/2 blade.
Nicholson 32 plenty of variants.
Sadler 32, 25 plenty of variants.
Sonata fin/drop.
Super Seal 26 folding/2 blade/outboard and fin/drop.
Twister with/without spinnaker.
UFO 31 has folding/3 blade.
Westerly Fulmar has fin/twin and folding/2 blade/3 blade.
Westerly Konsort has folding/2 blade/3 blade and with/without spinnaker.
Westerly Storm has folding/2 blade.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Concerto, thanks for this, which does work well for some classes (my Sadler 25 has numerous variations) and I have sort of got this far, but I seem to remember there were adjustments for Spinnaker/no spinnaker, oversize genoa etc, also for example we have several Sadler 29, but some have folding prop, others have standard but the 2012 list shows no variant, so again the old list of adjustments would be useful if I could ever find one.
Why are we looking? We used PY locally very successfully for many years (very few arguments over results) we then tried IRC (but this excluded the occasional racers who baulked at paying for measuring), tried NHC but without a computer nerd not straightforward, so as we are only a small fleet we thought lets try and go back to PY.
It just seems remarkable how all copies of PY YR2/ publication have vanished from the universe.

 

[Concerto]

Concerto, thanks for this, which does work well for some classes (my Sadler 25 has numerous variations) and I have sort of got this far, but I seem to remember there were adjustments for Spinnaker/no spinnaker, oversize genoa etc, also for example we have several Sadler 29, but some have folding prop, others have standard but the 2012 list shows no variant, so again the old list of adjustments would be useful if I could ever find one.
Why are we looking? We used PY locally very successfully for many years (very few arguments over results) we then tried IRC (but this excluded the occasional racers who baulked at paying for measuring), tried NHC but without a computer nerd not straightforward, so as we are only a small fleet we thought lets try and go back to PY.
It just seems remarkable how all copies of PY YR2/ publication have vanished from the universe.

Have you approached the RYA as I feel sure they must have a digital copy of what you are looking for.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Have you approached the RYA as I feel sure they must have a digital copy of what you are looking for.

They were my first port of call, surprisingly there do not seem to be any copies on record, the technical manager is still trying to find something for me, but I am beginning to think that some malevolent alien force has somehow destroyed every back copy of this publication.

 

[Piddy]

Our club uses a modified PY system that self-adjusts based on position taking into account the number of boats racing and a maximum permitted variation over a season.
Some of the more racier racers are not too keen as they feel that because they prepare their boats properly and sail them well, they should win - and in reality, they tend to do so. However, my goal was to create a system where a boat, racing on a day where the weather suits them and making as few mistakes as possible, should stand a chance of winning.
To this end the system is closing up the average range of corrected times and has been running for 6 years.
Another aspect is that it de-skills the race data entry for the race officers. We have a lovely group of ladies that man the start hut and enter the times for each boat that finishes with the system calculating all of the corrected times, discards and positions.

Covid savaged the fleet so instead of running a long course (fast) fleet and a short course (slow) fleet, we now have reverted back to a single fleet race.

 

[Daydream believer]

If you have not got a PY for a shrimper see if you can find one for an Avon rubber dinghy with oars ( no seagull attached) & use that as a starting point.

 

[Concerto]

They were my first port of call, surprisingly there do not seem to be any copies on record, the technical manager is still trying to find something for me, but I am beginning to think that some malevolent alien force has somehow destroyed every back copy of this publication.

Another place to try could be the Cruising Association as they have a massive library. Worth a phone call.

 

[dunedin]

Another place to try could be the Cruising Association as they have a massive library. Worth a phone call.

A set of PY small boat racing handicaps is the one thing I would NOT expect the Cruising Association to keep in their library.
Navigation details for a remote part of Greenland - yes. But racing is not their thing.