Port Edgar Problems

[mcanderson]

I've just had an email, which backs a rumour that has been floating about, that Edinburgh Council wants to step down from the running of the Port Edgar marina. This is probably not great news as the big question is who is going to step in and run the marina?

Infrastructure for sailing is not great on the East coast of Scotland and I hope that things don't get worse.

Still a new owner/operator could bring new capital and make an improvement.

 

[maxi77]

Time will tell, but over the years there have been offers to take over. Lets face it Edinburgh has mishandled the running of Port Edgar for years and I am certain that it yould be in the boat owners interest if they sold the place lock stock and barrel. The reality is they are not that smart as we see from the trams fiasco. We are very likely to see that the berth holders get charged silly money for less and less service and then just get kicked out at the end as the Toon Cooncil fail once again to make their mind up in a timely manner. Another Edinburgh fiasco is on the cards.

 

[armchairsailor]

This from Terry Kirchin, Commodore PEYC:

Hi
I've just returned from a briefing meeting given by the Edinburgh Leisure Chairman (Charles Winstanley).

From what was said, there are clearly significant issues and uncertainties now facing us and the other site users at Port Edgar.

In summary, Edinburgh Leisure have advised Edinburgh City Council (the site owners) that in the long term, they do not wish to be the operators of the marina. They are willing to continue to run the sailing school but, over say the next two years, they would wish to step down from managing and operating the marina.

For their part, the Council have indicated that they want both the Sailing School and the marina to continue to operate long term.

So, with the Sailing School carrying on under Edinburgh Leisure's watchful eye, two key questions spring immediately to mind regarding the marina itself.....who will take on the task of operating the Marina and on what basis? It looks like the challenge is now on to find someone willing and able to do it.

In due course, the Council will need to describe their formal decision making process and timetable, but for now the game is afoot to find or create that new operator. There are a range of possible outcomes - from 'no interest/no takers' through to keen commercial bids (bringing with them new capital and a site refurbishment programme!). Somewhere in the mix of possible outcomes there could even be some form user-led/community-based syndicate.

With the news having only just broken, there's much to find out ........... and much to do.

 

[Al Dickson]

Perhaps there is an opportunity here for the new FYM/Bosuns Locker set up ?

 

[Quandary]

Privatising marina operation.

I would not panic about it. When Bangor and Carrickfergus Marinas were developed by their respective town councils; Carrick Council opted to run the marina through their leisure department while Bangor sought tenders from experienced companies to operate on 15 year leases.
Bangor is significantly better run, maintained and staffed, though it is a bit more expensive; it has had the same manager since the beginning but the name of the operating company has changed with the lease renewal, now called 'Quay Marinas' they also operate Rhu Marina for the Crown Estate as well as some sites in Wales and North East England. The response to their more recent involvement with Rhu also seems to have been positive.
I suspect that may be likely to have to pay more for a berth, particularly as there does not seem to be much local competition but the quality of facilities and service is likely to be better if the successful lessor is experienced. The worst outcome could be the old Craobh Haven scenario where an inexperienced local interest group or berth holders association try to manage it but get into debt and go bust every couple of years because they want to favour their members interest.

 

[maxi77]

In due course, the Council will need to describe their formal decision making process and timetable, but for now the game is afoot to find or create that new operator. There are a range of possible outcomes - from 'no interest/no takers' through to keen commercial bids (bringing with them new capital and a site refurbishment programme!). Somewhere in the mix of possible outcomes there could even be some form user-led/community-based syndicate.

Looking back on the councils ability to make a workable commercial plan (Just look back at the two failed attempts to develop Port Edgar, the trams, and various holes in the ground, opera houses etc) I really fear that this potentially excellent facility will close in the not too distant future. I know there are good people with ability in both the Berth holders association and PEYC but against the dead hand of the council one wonders.

 

[awol]

I would not panic about it. When Bangor and Carrickfergus Marinas were developed by their respective town councils; Carrick Council opted to run the marina through their leisure department while Bangor sought tenders from experienced companies to operate on 15 year leases.
Bangor is significantly better run, maintained and staffed, though it is a bit more expensive;

Was in Carrickfergus last year - brand new pontoons, good facilities, even smart low energy lighting, and not expensive. If only PE were anywhere close!
I wonder how many boats were damaged there on Monday?

 

[mcanderson]

Now on the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-13543486

Maybe the sale will help pay out the trams fiasco?

 

[Quandary]

Was in Carrickfergus last year - brand new pontoons, good facilities, even smart low energy lighting, and not expensive. If only PE were anywhere close!
I wonder how many boats were damaged there on Monday?

When we tried to go in in April this year we were told to wait for two hours as it was LW springs, and the security man on duty said they had no free berths left in the harbour, our draught is only 1.8m. We did not fancy going back to Bangor or hanging around until after dark so I decided to chance it. Got in Ok but sounder was showing just on 1.8m in the approach channel though we did not touch bottom until we were safely inside. Berth holders had asked the Council to dredge when they were replacing the old pontoons but they decided to leave it for a few years. Apparently the new pontoons are Dutch and the locals do not like them (or the contractor) but because it was a Council job it was open tender and lowest price. One bidder was planning to use the very generous pontoons and walkways from Southampton Boat Show, now installed in Portavadie, but his tender missed the deadline.The number of dedicated visitors berths for fin keel yachts is reduced considerably by the silting..
I have nothing against Carrickfergus, I am a life member of CSC.

 

[Romeo]

Could the berth holders form a harbour trust, to keep the place in safe hands? They may be able to unlock funding sources that the council cannot. Generally councils have not shone at running marine facilities around here for the past few years.

 

[Quandary]

Marinas can need very large inputs of capital from time to time (dredging, replacing pontoons etc.) and this is often ignored when making plans and costings based on day to day running. The berth holders who invested to operate Craobh Haven in between some of its bankruptcies were badly burnt and that was at a time when expectations were lower than today.

 

[Doghousekeeper]

So the City Council wants to hand over the running of Port Edgar marina. Hardly a loss. Maybe it will have the chance to develop it's potential at last. It's been an eyesore and a disgrace for long enough

 

[maxi77]

So the City Council wants to hand over the running of Port Edgar marina. Hardly a loss. Maybe it will have the chance to develop it's potential at last. It's been an eyesore and a disgrace for long enough

Not quite, Edinburgh Leisure who are an arms length company owned by the council who presently lease the site from the council will cease the marina operations. The councils past attempts at development of this site do not fill me with great optimism for the present berth holders.

One hopes the City Council will simply put the site on the market and hopefully a company with the financial resources and some interest in boating will buy it. But with all their tram problems will any one on the council have the time to worry about the marina which has been starved of investment since it was opened.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Road access is abysmal. However, looking at old pictures when it was full of navy vessels indicates that it has a lot of potential capacity. Who knows what contaminates they would find if they started dredging.

I would have thought Leith Dock (lock access but loads of room) and Granton Dock (requires dredging) would be a better bet as a commercial proposal for a Marina. Leith could be an Ardrossan style development.

Not sure if the area has the potential yacht density to warrant a bigger Marina development with the commercial returns that investors would want.

My son will be spending a week dinghy sailing at Port Edgar in July, good reputation at the school from what I gather.

 

[Seajet]

Did they ever improve the showers / loos at Port Edgar ?

I visited approx' 10 yrs ago and the facilities were dreadful, struck me as very possibly ex-Navy barracks style; if anyone offered that sort of thing on the South ( or French ) coast, it wouldn't last a week.

I do hope the place gets the development it and the locals ( sailors and jobs of various kinds ) deserves.

 

[SHUG]

Its not good news that the Councul want to continue to run the Sailing Scool. If the Port Edgar Sailing Club ran the sailing school they would be in a better position to pursue Lottery funding and other Grants. As it is PEYC looks like a self-interested racing club and that is possibly why they are in a pre-war rotting shack and have failed to raise funds for a new clubhouse. Contrast this with East Lothian Sailing Club which runs sailing classes for the local youth and has had great success with funding.
Harsh words but this looks like a good opportunity for PEYC to grow and develop. (if you like sailing amongst bridges!!!)

 

[ukmctc]

hmm, sounds like a sell out to highest bidder. probably mr b soutar, for the new bridge access, he's bought up the otherside already.

 

[maxi77]

Did they ever improve the showers / loos at Port Edgar ?

I visited approx' 10 yrs ago and the facilities were dreadful, struck me as very possibly ex-Navy barracks style; if anyone offered that sort of thing on the South ( or French ) coast, it wouldn't last a week.

I do hope the place gets the development it and the locals ( sailors and jobs of various kinds ) deserves.

Yes they are ex RN though they have been tarted up a bit. In their favour they are always well heated (essential in the winter) and hot water never runs out.

As to the standard of facilities and service they are dire, the Froggies do council marinas very well, their worst in my experience was luxury compared to PE. Even in the UK there are council facilities that are better run and miore affordable, look at Scarborough for example, small but good, really felt I was welcome where as I have met visitors to PE that would never come back because they were so badly treated. (One berthed next to me was told the berth next to me was the only one available and they could only have it for two days, at the time there were several unused berth on that pontoon and after they left no one came into the berth, so they were lied to and apparently rudely too.)

Unlike some harbours dredging does not seem a problem as the marina has it's own dredger and it is regularly in action, though the tree huggers say that the shallow parts that have formed since the RN moved out are an essential bid resource, shades of Studland.

As for using Leith the western harbour is now contained by a big ship lock, far to expensive to operate for yachties. Granton is owned by Forth Ports who see it (as they do with Leith) as a house buildig opportunity and are already threatening the establishe shore storage used by Forth Corinthians. They would like a marina, but at no cost to themselves and without encroaching on their house building plans because having some yachts around sells houses. I think they would be quite happy to fill the whole place in to build houses.

At the end of the day PE is the best hope, but it needs some one like MDL or Premier to develop it. There is space for housing to fund the rebuild but it does need an owner with a long term view who sees the return on investment in years not days.

 

[armchairsailor]

Putting things right a little

As it is PEYC looks like a self-interested racing club and that is possibly why they are in a pre-war rotting shack and have failed to raise funds for a new clubhouse.

Harsh words but this looks like a good opportunity for PEYC to grow and develop. (if you like sailing amongst bridges!!!)

Harsh words indeed. Some might even say unfounded criticism. PEYC runs racing several nights a week - very successfully I might add, so yes, there is a racing focus. But they also have a well developed cruising group and from what I understand of the accounts, they're pretty good really - they just bought 2 Hunter 707's for members to hire at a discounted rate, and they're paying for themselves. Membership is high, prices for it are low and by no means is it an exclusive club. I'm not a member there now, but I was last year, so I know a little about it.

The reason they're still in their original clubhouse is because of the uncertainty over any (or the lack of) development planned for the complex. What on earth is the point of putting up a new clubhouse only to have it torn down if the Council decided it wanted to develop the place? It's been a case of not having direction from the landowners, and therefore a certain insecurity regarding the long term future of the site that's stopped PEYC having a better building. And I like the old one - it shows that they're more concerned on getting on the water and having a good time than how they look to others. I'm all for low rates of membership, many members and a friendly atmosphere over exclusivity any day.

And as for sailing about under the bridges, well, yes, it's a bit noisy and the winds can be pretty flukey, but there are a lot of very good sailors at that club. And a distinct lack of poseurs.

 

[maxi77]

Its not good news that the Councul want to continue to run the Sailing Scool. If the Port Edgar Sailing Club ran the sailing school they would be in a better position to pursue Lottery funding and other Grants. As it is PEYC looks like a self-interested racing club and that is possibly why they are in a pre-war rotting shack and have failed to raise funds for a new clubhouse. Contrast this with East Lothian Sailing Club which runs sailing classes for the local youth and has had great success with funding.
Harsh words but this looks like a good opportunity for PEYC to grow and develop. (if you like sailing amongst bridges!!!)

Would you shell out buckets of cash for a new building when you only have a 12 month licence. PEYC has wanted a new clubhouse for years but have never been able to get the security of tenure to justify the cash, as it is they may well not exist in three years time when the marina closes and they are evicted from the site. The reason they are still in a wooden shed is down to years of mismanagment of the site by Edinburgh Council.