PabloPicasso
Well-known member
Can poling out the job give better speed on a beam reach?
Poling out the jib
- Thread starter PabloPicasso
- Start date
Poey50
Well-known member
No. The only time that poling out the jib or genoa is likely to help is when goose-winged downwind.
RichardS
N/A
sniffyjenkins
Member
As Poey50 said, it's for goose-winging dead downwind.
Adamastor
Member
Paying attention to your jib-car position is essential on a beam reach because the clew can start to lift and make the whole "luxury yachting" image pretty tatty especially if the leech is twisting open or fluttering like bloomers on a bicycle!
PabloPicasso
Well-known member
I was on a beam reach (slightly broad but not much) in light airs in a club race with main and jib out to port doing 2.5knts. Played car and sheet position but couldn't get the job to draw well. Polled out the jib to port and found we had 3.5knts. We quickly caught up to the two boats in front of us but did not manage to overtake them before the next turning mark when we had to drop the pole.
I'm not understanding quite why, on this occasion, this proved so effective??
I'm not understanding quite why, on this occasion, this proved so effective??
Last edited:
William_H
Well-known member
Yes polling out the jib (to leeward) can be hugely beneficial in getting all of the jib to work for you. It can be a bit tricky in that a variable length pole would be best. you do not want to just pole out the jib but also adjust the sheeting points further forward. What you want to achieve is a jib that is close to flat with some camber, the leech straight with tension on the sheet getting the top part of the jib to work as well as the bottom. The pole enables the sheet to be tight but with the sail out near 45 degrees from centre line. (well not that much really). The jib then works like your mainsail which will have a boom pulled down, so flat and tensioned main sail but the entire sail out from the centre line by using a wide traveller or a strong vang.
The best angle of the main and the jib to the wind will depend on actual angle of wind and boat speed/wind speed. Pull it in tight enough to get max drive but not so tight as to induce stalling in the airflow. Stalling indicated by tell tales showing disturbed air flow.
Stalling is where the angle of attack of the wind is so great that air flow is not smooth and becomes disturbed. Put it very simply is if the main is flat on centre line in a broad reach then wind does not know whether to flow toward the back giving drive or forward driving you backwards. Now that is an extreme case but the point is wind needs to be encouraged to flow towards the back by not demanding such a high angle of attack. On the other hand an angle of attack too small does not extract the max drive forward force. Often of course the angle of attack (tightness of main sheet) is dictated by heel on the boat. olewill
The best angle of the main and the jib to the wind will depend on actual angle of wind and boat speed/wind speed. Pull it in tight enough to get max drive but not so tight as to induce stalling in the airflow. Stalling indicated by tell tales showing disturbed air flow.
Stalling is where the angle of attack of the wind is so great that air flow is not smooth and becomes disturbed. Put it very simply is if the main is flat on centre line in a broad reach then wind does not know whether to flow toward the back giving drive or forward driving you backwards. Now that is an extreme case but the point is wind needs to be encouraged to flow towards the back by not demanding such a high angle of attack. On the other hand an angle of attack too small does not extract the max drive forward force. Often of course the angle of attack (tightness of main sheet) is dictated by heel on the boat. olewill
PabloPicasso
Well-known member
Ok. So I'm not in cloud cuckoo land then. I found that car way back with jib polled out and pole as far back as possible gave best speed. Light airs felt like a f2/3 across the deck on a beam reach that was slightly broad and flat sea.
garvellachs
Member
My experience is that poling out an overlapping genoa on a beam reach or broad reach can improve the angle of the sail's aerofoil to the wind and result in much more drive - as you found.
Poey50
Well-known member
Interesting ... I stand corrected. I can see that poling-out could help in those circumstances that the pressure of the wind is not sufficient to hold the genoa in good shape but are are you suggesting that poling-out can help beyond that?
Topcat47
Well-known member
This explains why whisker poles are so expensive. I tried to get one for my 26'er only to find they were twice the price of spinnaker poles and seemingly built like Brick privies. The cross section was bigger than my original boom.
lw395
Well-known member
A lot of 2-sail dinghies are using jib poles on reaches these days.
Often rigged as a 'dangly pole' from the mast.
It pushes the clew out on a broad reach, without letting the clew rise, so it limits twist in the sail.
Other dinghies use 'barber haulers' to pull the jib sheet out to the gunwhale.
On a yacht you can get some benefit by sheeting or barbering the genoa to the toe-rail, but if you want to go beyond that a pole is needed.
If racing, be a aware of rule 50:
50.3 Use of Outriggers
(a) No sail shall be sheeted over or through an outrigger, except as
permitted in rule 50.3(b) or 50.3(c). An outrigger is any fitting
or other device so placed that it could exert outward pressure
on a sheet or sail at a point from which, with the boat upright, a
vertical line would fall outside the hull or deck. For the purpose
of this rule, bulwarks, rails and rubbing strakes are not part of
the hull or deck and the following are not outriggers: a
bowsprit used to secure the tack of a sail, a bumkin used to
sheet the boom of a sail, or a boom of a boomed headsail that
requires no adjustment when tacking.
(b) Any sail may be sheeted to or led above a boom that is
regularly used for a sail and is permanently attached to the
mast from which the head of the sail is set.
(c) A headsail may be sheeted or attached at its clew to a spinnaker
pole or whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set.
Often rigged as a 'dangly pole' from the mast.
It pushes the clew out on a broad reach, without letting the clew rise, so it limits twist in the sail.
Other dinghies use 'barber haulers' to pull the jib sheet out to the gunwhale.
On a yacht you can get some benefit by sheeting or barbering the genoa to the toe-rail, but if you want to go beyond that a pole is needed.
If racing, be a aware of rule 50:
50.3 Use of Outriggers
(a) No sail shall be sheeted over or through an outrigger, except as
permitted in rule 50.3(b) or 50.3(c). An outrigger is any fitting
or other device so placed that it could exert outward pressure
on a sheet or sail at a point from which, with the boat upright, a
vertical line would fall outside the hull or deck. For the purpose
of this rule, bulwarks, rails and rubbing strakes are not part of
the hull or deck and the following are not outriggers: a
bowsprit used to secure the tack of a sail, a bumkin used to
sheet the boom of a sail, or a boom of a boomed headsail that
requires no adjustment when tacking.
(b) Any sail may be sheeted to or led above a boom that is
regularly used for a sail and is permanently attached to the
mast from which the head of the sail is set.
(c) A headsail may be sheeted or attached at its clew to a spinnaker
pole or whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set.
lampshuk
Member
So, poling out a genny is OK when racing, then? Just not having an outrigger for the sheet lead.
SteveIOW
Member
My 1970s era cruiser has typical small main and large genoa. Trying to pole out the genoa has proved difficult. The standing rigging has forward lowers (no baby stay) and these means that if the pole is rigged forward of these then the outboard end of the pole is too far forward. I have tried rigging the pole between the cap shroud and the forward lower stay but this is a risky business if the pole rests against either stay when under load. Because of this I have stopped using the whisker in recent years.
I have recently thought of using a shorter pole and securing the inboard end on one of the 3 chain plates (U bolts) on the toe rail instead of the mast. The rigging wouldn't be in the way then. The toe rail and U bolts are plenty strong enough. The only problem I can see is stopping the outboard end of the pole from lifting. Has anyone else tried this method?
I
I have recently thought of using a shorter pole and securing the inboard end on one of the 3 chain plates (U bolts) on the toe rail instead of the mast. The rigging wouldn't be in the way then. The toe rail and U bolts are plenty strong enough. The only problem I can see is stopping the outboard end of the pole from lifting. Has anyone else tried this method?
I
garvellachs
Member
Yup - the idea is to create a shape more akin to that used upwind where the sheet offers so much more control. In a gentle breeze it can be very effective - when otherwise with no pole the genoa would be controlled very loosely.
PuffTheMagicDragon
Active member
In effect, you are controlling the camber of the sail and not letting it become too baggy, thus getting more lift from the aerofoil.
Re Rule 50, you are well covered by 50.3 (c).
Re Rule 50, you are well covered by 50.3 (c).
lampshuk
Member
Not in exactly that way. In light airs I fixed the inboard end of the boathook to the shroud itself then popped the other end through the clew, so it was free to pivot and still could have had a downhaul.
Wouldn't recommend that for anything more windy, though. Mind you - it's an interesting point. given the amount of load that the shrouds take, how much sideways load could you apply? Any of our resident engineers able to comment?
If you stick with the toerail/chainplate then I guess you might find a simple foreguy would help prevent lifting by letting you tension against the sheet. Sailing in the Solent I rarely spend enough time on one point of sail to make it worth while doing all that knitting, so I use an extensible whisker pole with just an uphaul (which is there more to give me some confidence I won't lose that extremely expensive piece of kit when juggling it on the foredeck than for sail trimming purposes).
But even without that, my rather crude experiments showed that it's definitely worth even a rudimentary setup. Definitely worth giving it a try.
Wouldn't recommend that for anything more windy, though. Mind you - it's an interesting point. given the amount of load that the shrouds take, how much sideways load could you apply? Any of our resident engineers able to comment?
If you stick with the toerail/chainplate then I guess you might find a simple foreguy would help prevent lifting by letting you tension against the sheet. Sailing in the Solent I rarely spend enough time on one point of sail to make it worth while doing all that knitting, so I use an extensible whisker pole with just an uphaul (which is there more to give me some confidence I won't lose that extremely expensive piece of kit when juggling it on the foredeck than for sail trimming purposes).
But even without that, my rather crude experiments showed that it's definitely worth even a rudimentary setup. Definitely worth giving it a try.
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