Pointing and keel type

[aitchw]

Pointing ability or lack of in boats of different keel forms is oft debated on the forums and people inevitably describe these abilities in subjective good or bad terms.

What, in a cruising rather than racing context, would you define as good and bad in degrees off the wind?

Because of a lack of experience of sailing keel boats I still use my dinghy experience to judge things and I know from that pointing is not just a matter of hull/keel form but is also a function of rig tuning/set up, state of sails and crew sailing skills mainly.

My little bilge keeler points quite well in my terms as I potter about and I wonder how much practical difference a degree or two here or there matters in real terms and how many people end up buying particular kinds of boats on what might be the slightly misleading or misunderstood evaluations of other people.

 

[twisterkai]

A degree or two can make quite a bit of difference on a channel crossing - for every degree over 60 miles you're another mile towards/away from destination.

If you can tack through 90 degrees when cruising then I would say that was acceptable, smaller amount is better. At the end of the day, it's all well and good tacking through a fairly small angle, but how does the boat actually track? What's the leeway like? What's the boat speed like?

With most cruising boats, IMHO, you're far better off freeing off a few degrees and increasing boat speed rather than trying to point as high as possible. Unless you're trying to claw your way off a lee shore......

 

[fireball]

[ QUOTE ]
With most cruising boats, IMHO, you're far better off freeing off a few degrees and increasing boat speed rather than trying to point as high as possible. Unless you're trying to claw your way off a lee shore......

[/ QUOTE ]
It always comes down to this trade off - do you point high (and slower) or free off a bit, go faster, but have to put a tack in ... in my racing dinghy it is better to free off a bit, get the speed up then point up (I just can't always do that!). In the big boat (fin keel) it doesn't seem to make too much difference to the speed if we point at 35 off the wind or 40 - but it does affect the heeling (and thus leeway) so we try and sail it a little bit more upright if possible

 

[Lakesailor]

35 degrees off the wind. Ah nirvana. It's not just boat speed that's the issue. if you're making an extra 2 knots in the wrong direction that's no use. On the lake you can consider it like sailing up a (wide) channel. If you can't point well (and of course make little leeway) you're sometimes going to end up going backwards and forwards across the lake but make no progress along it.
That's why you see so many people motoring when you think "why are they motoring when there's a good breeze?"

 

[ditchcrawler]

I sail a twin keeler & according to the VMG & wind instuments(if they are correct) max vmg is at about 45degrees & we lose considerable speed at anything under 42degrees.When I raced bigger boats the Sigma 38 would go like stink at 35 degrees to the wind & a Giles 45 footer that I raced showed very little drop of speed at close to 30 degrees to the wind(as read from the instuments) This boat had a deep fin keel of nearly 8 feet though.
Without a doubt depth weight & configuration have an enormous effect on not only pointing ability but leeway.
My twin keeler appears to go much better when sailed free to the wind & does not like being pinched up,which was an early fault of mine as I raced a Merlin Rocket dinghy in my youth & those can really be tuned to point high.

 

[phatcat1]

If your cruising across the channel, what difference does a mile or two actually make, as long as you know where you are, where you are going and you are safe?

If you want outright performance buy a boat with a deep keel, (such as the Americas cup boats or Volvo 60's) if you are sailing the oceans and want reliable comfort, buy a heavy diplacement long keel. If you want to cruise to quiet anchorages or dry out standing up, buy a bilge!

At the end of the day, a well sailed bilge, with a well tuned rig will sail better than a badly sailed fin!

It is horses for courses, and far better to judge a boat by it's ability to provide the type of sailing the owner wants, rather than it can point 5 degrees higher or has 5 degrees more leeway or not, than a boat that is totally unsuitable for the purpose!

Who gives a %%$£ if it takes 30 minutes longer to cross the channel??????????

 

[Mirelle]

Er, well, I sail a heavy, long keeled, gaff cutter...

A lot depends, I find, on how clean the bottom is, with this sort of boat. The wetted surface is relatively large and she behaves quite differently when even slightly foul - it is necessary to crack off and gain boatspeed in these circumstances.

The good side of this is that sea conditions make very little difference until one starts steering for the seas - say top of F5.

 

[Robin]

There is a trade off between pointing, boatspeed and leeway and every situation is different. Keel type is a big factor as is draft and hull shape.

Our previous W33 Ketch had an optimum (apparent) wind angle upwind of 35 degs, a bit more in big seas and tacked through +/- 85 degs to the true wind. (with well set up rig and good sails), boatspeed +/-6kts. When we sailed in company with friends in a W33 bilge keeler they would motorsail every so often to catch up, overall they were about 0.5kt slower at the same wind angle.

Our current Jeanneau Sun Legende 41 is a pedigree cruiser/racer and the optimum (apparent) wind angle is 28 degs in flat seas and we tack through +/- 80 degs with boatspeed around 7kts. At 35 degs apparent (as 'optimum' for our old W33) we are easing the sheets and probably doing nearer 7.5kts. We CAN however point up and sail at 22 -25 degs apparent but boatspeed drops to 6 kts, useful occasionally to squeeze round a buoy and avoid a tack.

There is no sense in pointing high and making loads of leeway though! To prevent leeway needs a decent draft and a decent boatseed, a bilge keeler WILL make leeway and also has less boatspeed from more drag than it's fin keeled sistership so a double whammy I'm afraid as far as making rapid ground to windward is concerned.

The choice between between keel types depends on you personal preferences, starting of course with the type of mooring you have. I have owned one centreboarder, 3 triple keelers (centre ballast keel plus bilge plates) and 3 fin keelers and in my case the fin will always be the one. I had shallow draft keels when I had a drying mooring but once I was on board HATED drying out so avoided shallow areas just as much as deeper fin keelers would, but others like the abilty to take the ground occasionally. My preference is for the ability to make fast passage times under sail, and being able to sail well upwind gives me the chance to sail when many are motoring.

 

[Lakesailor]

I think you missunderstand. Look at this........

In my bilge keel yacht I'm the black line. Taking into account leeway and windshifts I make <span style="color:black">bu</span><span style="color:black">gger</span> all progress against a NE wind.
John, (who he?) in his fin keeler with better pointing and less leeway makes far more progress up the lake. (Yellow line)
He gets to Waterhead has lunch and runs back down the lake, passing me as I struggle on. I arrive at 4.00pm and the wind dies so I don't even get the run back home but have to fire up the iron sail. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[Salty]

"Who gives a %%$£ if it takes 30 minutes longer to cross the channel?????????? "

I do. Inevitably I end up with the first line ashore at 23.01 and the yacht club bar shutting its doors. Half an hour earlier and I would have got a pint!

 

[Bergman]

Wrong solution

You set off at the wrong time

Or

Went to the wrong destination

Anyway

A gentleman never sails to weather!

 

[Robin]

[ QUOTE ]
A gentleman never sails to weather!

[/ QUOTE ]

So if he has a boat that will sail closer to the wind he has a bigger choice of non-windward destintations!

Utilising the Law of Sodde in reverse, if you have a boat that WILL go upwind, it gets called on much less to actually do so. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[orion21]

show me bowness and the cadet camp on this map please.
cheers

 

[Lakesailor]

There are many camps around Windermere, and when you say Cadet do you mean Sea Cadets or ATC?
Have a scan around Windermere on Multi-map. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[aitchw]

Thanks for the guidance.

So, I guess I can regard 45 as useful datum. Next time out I will try to get a better idea of where Scruffy stands in relation to it.

From a personal standpoint it is not a big issue because I don't expect passage making capability in a little boat like mine and as long as I can make significant progress to windward I can live with it. The advantages of her keel set up far outway the disadvantages.

I now have something I can use to visualise pointing ability when folk mention it in posts/conversation.


Thanks again.