plough anchor

I have just returned from Mallorca. There the sand is incredibly hard and I could not get my CQR to set. I know a Rocna is good in soft stuff but will it bite into this type of very hard sand?????

Tudorsailor
 
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<span style="color:blue"> most of the claws are based on Bruce anchors, now any Bruce anchor owner will tell you once their Bruce has taken hold, not a lot will shift it! </span>

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I will not say « most » but ALL claws are based on Bruce anchor design! And it is well known that holding is not one of the main characteristics of the Bruce anchor ( or clones ) – Satisfied users of Bruce anchors are the ones who use oversized models...

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<span style="color:blue">I can understand the « My anchor is better than yours » argument </span>

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Why not? but were did you read this argument??
As you take the point, I will then say that « New Gen » anchors are by far better than « last century » anchors, most are demonstrably superior to hinged ploughs, claws or flat anchors.

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<span style="color:blue"> The sellers of anchors do themselves no favours by the tit for tat Mine is better than yours or the alteration of testing figures. We have Governments who do this and who believes them </span> ?

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I remember the time, not long ago, where the large majority of sailors where praising CQR and Bruce anchors. A good number of them have now changed for a « new gen » anchors… and no one will go back to the ancient technology.

As I tell my grand kids often " don't slag something until you've tried it ". Is that a relevant statement here?? I suspect it maybe.

João
 
Those folk on the South Coast of the UK this past weekend may agree it was a bit draughty from the North-East.. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Without getting involved in "which is best" etc: etc: I'd just like to comment that I spent from Sunday 15.00 hrs to Tuesday 08.30 hrs. lying to a Delta and 45 metres...of 8 mm chain, in 8 metres deepest. Engine problem, (air leak) a lee shore and gusts to 35 knots.. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I am greyer than I was on Saturday ..but the Delta in sand and weed did the bizz.. Now in a posh marina, safe and sound... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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I have just returned from Mallorca. There the sand is incredibly hard and I could not get my CQR to set. I know a Rocna is good in soft stuff but will it bite into this type of very hard sand?????

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The whole point of the Rocna is it is designed to handle as great a diversity of seabed as possible, and certainly we know that it will give you the best chance possible of penetrating a very hard seabed.

It is the harder seabeds which tend to shine a harsh light on the old generation anchors, which is one of the reasons that this (British based) forum displays some of the greatest resistance against the idea that there's anything wrong at all with the CQR et al. English seabeds tend to be more forgiving than most - range farther afield however, and the need for a more versatile anchor becomes apparent.

Alain/Joao has done his best to discredit the 2006 West Marine testing, but the three locations in that test were all hard sand.
 
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davy-s
i do know what you mean i see bad anchoring all the time but i have been sailing for 30 years plus,and carry two danfoth,three fisherman,a15kg bruce,and my 25kg plough which i used most of the time,i was at walton backwaters 3 weeks ago and had two 42 foot boats rafted up and had no problems,but it was a pig to set,as always i was looking for some thing better as my confidence had wained,bruce was to small,have now bought a 25kg,danfoth will not fit my bow roller nicely,
 
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which is one of the reasons that this (British based) forum displays some of the greatest resistance against the idea that there's anything wrong at all with the CQR et al.

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Another reason would be that it is simply a Great British Design Classic, without which Rocna and other "new generation" anchors would not exist.

It is worth mentioning that the designer, Sir Geoffrey Taylor was very keen East Coast sailor, and his sailing area arguably had an influence on his design, which, ofcourse, was mainly designed for use and easy stowage onboard seaplanes and not yachts!

I sail the East Coast and never had a problem with my authentic CQR. Probably because in my sailing area is fit for purpose, and I have never had any reason to question it.
 
The seaplane thing is a bit of a myth, although the design did find an application there which was publicized at the time. It is first and foremost a boat anchor.

www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/old-generation-anchors.php

The east coast thing is true. However, while anything can set in forgiving seabeds, that's not to say it's efficient once set. A Rocna for example can provide over double the holding power, meaning the anchor may be less than half the weight (a factor related to cost also) for the same holding resistance, and its superior versatility remains present and ready for duty should an unexpected scenario arise.
 
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Let me just jump in with a different angle on this, and it follows-on from Craig's comment on weight.

I have the view that too large / heavy an anchor that cannot be properly buried when reversing with a small engine, is much worse than having a smaller anchor properly dug-in. Yet, there is lots of opinion out there that says "bigger is always better". I wonder if some of these problems are related to anchors that are too large?
 
Well you only look at a Fortress anchor to find out that biggest/heaviest is not always the best.

I've always found that you get a balanced answer if you actually talk to the manufacturer of the anchor (not the re-seller!), the first thing they ask is, where are you going to be using your anchor, what ground you usually anchor in and how heavy your boat is.
Never been asked to guess an anchoe size just based on length yet, although it seems this is the way some suppliers work what size anchor you need!!!!

When I spoke to fortress they supplied the full raw data for the 2006 West Marine testing, and asked me make my own conclusions about which anchor I thought was best. Very fair and honest of them.

Good thread though, no slander yet but its only page 3 /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
I think an aspect which has not been properly assessed is the SIZE of the anchor..
In the legendary YM tests the Bruce anchor on test was about 16Kg.on 8mm chain. Does this perform in the same way once you up the anchor size to 30Kg and put on 10mm chain. I don't think so. Thats the anchor setup we have and we are well pleased with it!!
 
The WM 2006 test did not test a genuine Bruce, but a Claw knock-off. However in such hard sand, these results are not new for the Bruce type. Lying on their back and failing to right is not an unusual scenario. It's only in softer ground that the side fluke can be relied on to catch and grab.

That aside, the differences in behavior due to scale between the 15 and 30 kg range are negligible. Between 10 and 100 kg you will notice some differences - and a sensible anchor design will make adjustments to the product line over that range.
 
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I agree, the size of your anchor is important, which is I don't understand why manufacturers advertise your anchor size by boat length. e.g.

Boat Size :40-50 FT / 12.2-15.24M
Standard Recommendation
0057416 Delta Anchor (Galvanised) 16Kg/35Lb Details
0057316 Delta Anchor (Stainless Steel) 16Kg/35Lb Details
Maximum Recommendation
0057420 Delta Anchor (Galvanised) 20Kg/44Lb Details
0057320 Delta Anchor (Stainless Steel) 20Kg/44Lb Details

Now this may may work for a modern lightweight GRP boat for for an older GRP boat (same length) that weighs in at 16 ton, this weight anchor is to small.

So my question to you anchor sellers is why don't you give out the correct info relating to length/weight of boat when printing your 'How do I choose what size anchor I should buy'?

Lets have a bit of honesty with selling the things, just give the correct advice on anchor size and chain size in all your litriture!
 
Lewmar's sizing for the Delta is notoriously super optimistic.

Manufacturers which produce different models, to meet the market demand, find themselves having to twist sizing recommendations to suit their claims for the better models. E.g. recommendations for a Delta would have to be smaller than those for a CQR. Others are worse still - imagine producing first a CQR copy, then a Bruce copy, then a Danforth copy, then a Rocna copy...

Moreover, manufacturers have a number of incentives to recommend smaller sizes. It makes the anchor look better and cheaper than the competition. And, it works: I have seen a few times people look at Rocna's (very conservative) sizing, and conclude that these Rocna anchors can't be very good if they need to be that big...

It is critical that researchers do not compare manufacturers' sizing recommendations on a like-for-like basis.

In any case, Rocna does have very conservative sizing, based on real world testing and real world force figures. Recommendations account for LOA (to refer a basic windage profile) and displacement (in recognition of the fact that boats do not sit still at anchor).

The Rocna Knowledge Base article on sizing outlines the basis for the Rocna sizing chart in some detail.
http://www.rocna.com/kb/Rocna_sizing_recommendations
 
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<span style="color:blue"> So my question to you anchor sellers is why don't you give out the correct info relating to length/weight of boat when printing your 'How do I choose what size anchor I should buy'?

Let’s have a bit of honesty with selling the things, just give the correct advice on anchor size and chain size in all your literature! </span>

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In our Specifications & Selection guide (see: Web page Specifications & Selection Guide )

We give our size suggestion, both for length and weight (boat displacement )

But they are also other considerations to take into account:
« Boat size recommendations are for boats of average windage, average bottom conditions, moderate protection from open seas and 60 knots of wind. »

Most anchors manufacturers give their recommendations for a max of 30 knots of wind – There are places in the world where 30 knots of wind are only « standard » conditions. If you size your anchor for mild conditions (30 knots) what will happen the day where you will have to sustain stronger conditions?

If you have a boat bigger than « average » boats, Multi hull, heavy displacement, more windage… You should select one size bigger – Same thing if you are usually anchoring in areas of poor holding conditions (soft mud).

Last point, anchors are usually classified by their WEIGHT – and weight has nearly NO RELATION to holding! When comparing anchors of the same weight they may have a very different fluke SURFACE AREA ( different holding ) for example:
30 kg Spade – blade surface area: 1400 sq cm
30 kg Rocna – blade surface area: 1590 sq cm
30 kg RAYA – blade surface area: 2005 sq cm

A Raya anchor of the same surface area than, for example, the Spade anchor, will only weight 20 kg ( one third less !)

It will be by far more precise to give size suggestion related also to the blade surface area of anchors

It’s somewhat difficult to give a precise suggestion valid for all boats and all anchoring conditions, but you should know your boat and selecting an anchor is also a question of good seamanship

João NODARI
 
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