Penalty turns

[WayneS]

Hi All, I have a penalty turn question for you. This is related to radiosailing (appendix E) but I don't believe that it changes things.

I have always raced on the understanding that, should you infringe (P/S collision, touching mark etc), that you take a penalty turn, you then take a second penalty turn if you still hold a significant advantage over the innocent party (E.4.3(b)), and then continue to take turns until you no longer hold a significant advantage. I know that things change if you cause damage etc but lets assume that both parties are able to continue.

However, reading the 2017 rules, it looks like there is no requirement to "continue taking penalty turns until the advantage no longer exists". Looking back at the 2013 rules I cannot even see in there that this requirement exists.

Am I missing something or have I always been under the wrong impression?

Cheers

 

[flaming]

Hi All, I have a penalty turn question for you. This is related to radiosailing (appendix E) but I don't believe that it changes things.

I have always raced on the understanding that, should you infringe (P/S collision, touching mark etc), that you take a penalty turn, you then take a second penalty turn if you still hold a significant advantage over the innocent party (E.4.3(b)), and then continue to take turns until you no longer hold a significant advantage. I know that things change if you cause damage etc but lets assume that both parties are able to continue.

However, reading the 2017 rules, it looks like there is no requirement to "continue taking penalty turns until the advantage no longer exists". Looking back at the 2013 rules I cannot even see in there that this requirement exists.

Am I missing something or have I always been under the wrong impression?

Cheers

The radio sailing rules change the text of rule 44.1.

E4.3 Taking a Penalty
Rule 44.1 is changed to:
A boat may take a One-Turn Penalty when she may have broken one
or more rules of Part 2, or rule 31, in an incident while racing.
However,
(a) when she may have broken a rule of Part 2 and rule 31 in the
same incident she need not take the penalty for breaking rule
31;
(b) if the boat gained a significant advantage in the heat or race by
her breach despite taking a penalty, her penalty shall be an
additional One-Turn Penalty;
(c) if the boat caused serious damage, or as a result of breaking a
rule of Part 2 she caused another boat to become disabled and
retire, her penalty shall be to retire.

This is different to the regular rules where if a significant advantage still exists you can only retire. I guess that this is because it's more likely when radio sailing to have hit someone, spun them out of control without doing any damage, done a 720 and still be ahead. That seems very unlikely in crewed sailing.

But no, you don't seem to have to keep spinning.

 

[WayneS]

you are correct Flaming, the likely hood of damage is quite low, but does happen occasionally. Entanglement is a bigger problem.

It is common to infringe when coming into a mark, especially when the mark is a long way off and you eyes are not as good as they used to be, and put the innocent party onto the mark or such while you go merrily on by, leaving them a real battle to get back under way again. Easy to end up with a significant advantage over the innocent party, despite doing a 720.

I can only assume that I, and many others, started the continuous spinning because of some regatta SSI's and they have just stuck in our heads.

Thanks for confirming my reading of the rules

 

[flaming]

you are correct Flaming, the likely hood of damage is quite low, but does happen occasionally. Entanglement is a bigger problem.

It is common to infringe when coming into a mark, especially when the mark is a long way off and you eyes are not as good as they used to be, and put the innocent party onto the mark or such while you go merrily on by, leaving them a real battle to get back under way again. Easy to end up with a significant advantage over the innocent party, despite doing a 720.

I can only assume that I, and many others, started the continuous spinning because of some regatta SSI's and they have just stuck in our heads.

Thanks for confirming my reading of the rules

Never having raced radio boats it's not something I'd ever really thought of before!

 

[WayneS]

Never having raced radio boats it's not something I'd ever really thought of before!

You should try it. Not only good fun but very educational.

If I could take my radiosailing knowledge of sail trim, tactics and rules back to proper sailing I would be a much better sailor.

If you ever want to try it, just shout and I can organize something.

 

[flaming]

Thanks! That's very kind.

 

[Beelzebub]

Oddly enough, I've been looking at RC Laser this evening

 

[temptress]

Hi All, I have a penalty turn question for you. This is related to radiosailing (appendix E) but I don't believe that it changes things.

I have always raced on the understanding that, should you infringe (P/S collision, touching mark etc), that you take a penalty turn, you then take a second penalty turn if you still hold a significant advantage over the innocent party (E.4.3(b)), and then continue to take turns until you no longer hold a significant advantage. I know that things change if you cause damage etc but lets assume that both parties are able to continue.

However, reading the 2017 rules, it looks like there is no requirement to "continue taking penalty turns until the advantage no longer exists". Looking back at the 2013 rules I cannot even see in there that this requirement exists.

Am I missing something or have I always been under the wrong impression?

Cheers

it has never been like that. The number of turns has varied but not as you state. either One turn, two turns or retirement have been the only options in the rules for over 40 years. The definition of 'turns' and the number of turns has been changed over the years. Of course sailing instructions can (and often do) amend this for individual races/series.

 

[WayneS]

Thanks Everyone, I will continue to do my turns regularly, but no more than 2 for each of my regular infringements
:encouragement:

 

[flaming]

it has never been like that. The number of turns has varied but not as you state. either One turn, two turns or retirement have been the only options in the rules for over 40 years. The definition of 'turns' and the number of turns has been changed over the years. Of course sailing instructions can (and often do) amend this for individual races/series.

Not in radio racing to which the OP was referring. Have a look at the relevant appendix, where there is a requirement to do one extra spin if you still have an advantage after taking your penalty.