Paxos - Washed up yachts??

[alexsailor]

"why do they mostly all anchor around (or very very close) another anchored boat in the bay?"
Because Slovene beer is better than Italian...!
I agree about Croatian nationalism, though. It's tiresome to see information boards giving a potted history going from the Greeks and Romans to modern-day Croatia, missing out 1500 years of Venice, Austria-Hungary (and Britain too in the case of Vis). The problem is that the Istrians and Dalmatians are being swamped by the inlanders.
Where do you keep your boat? Portoroz?
You're right to take photographic evidence of dumping rubbish; hand it to the charter companies and the police; such behaviour is inexcusable.

It is not that they (Italians) anchor next to a Slovenian boat (me). They anchor to close to anybody in the almost empty bay
But I can say that Italians vs. "old eastern block countries people" do have good style for dressing and picking the right taverna.
So, where Italians eat-there a sailor must "drop the anchor"

I see you are very well educated regarding "Adriatic nationalities". Good.
Nationalism in Croatia has exploded in the last two years. It is not so much about the history, it is seen in the everyday events.
I have 103 kg fairly well distributed but I do not feel myself comfortable every time (in a bar or so...).

I keep my boat in Croatia, because there is not much I can do on the Slovenian coast and it is closer to Greece
But I'll move it (her?) to Greece for sure (Preveza) when my contract expires. Enough is enough. Not that everything is perfect in Greece but it is the last cruising ground in the Mediterranean. If they'll go crazy with berthing fees, cruising tax, buoys... than I'll sell the boat and buy a house (and a small rib for fishing etc.)
You are in Trieste? Have some space there for an Italian lover? I mean berth in marina?

 

[jaba]

I agree about Croatian nationalism, though. It's tiresome to see information boards giving a potted history going from the Greeks and Romans to modern-day Croatia, missing out 1500 years of Venice, Austria-Hungary (and Britain too in the case of Vis).

Totally agree... There are other excesses too. For instance some Serb friends of mine told me that the Croatians are increasingly minting new words in order to distance themselves from their common Serbo-Croatian linguistic roots... (Reminds me of Italians under Fascism "cleaning the language"))

The problem is that the Istrians and Dalmatians are being swamped by the inlanders.

Actually, they have been already swamped. Results: Istrian and Dalmatian coast, while beautiful and preserved in nature and monuments, is totally destroyed and artificial in population. It's a (very expensive) theme park for tourists. That's why this year I permanently left the Adriatic and moved south.

 

[nickd]

In my limited anchoring experiences, it has always amazed me as to why new entrants to the anchorage always seem to want to snuggle up to existing boats at anchor. I have to say I think all nationalities are guilty of it. My theory is one of confidence and/or laziness, if they do not have an initimate knowledge of the anchorage and/or have not bothered to read up/study available information regarding the anchorage then they assume the person already there knows what they are doing and has picked the best spot, so the next best spot would be as close as possible to that (herding instinct). Whereas all other things being equal I would say the best spot is as far away as possible from the other boats.

 

[Palarran]

I'm American so for sure I can't anchor. Regardless, I'd like to address this thought about another boat coming into a bay and anchoring next to you. I'm not sure what you consider close or how big the bays are, but most times the reason you chose to be there is the same as theirs, not that they want to be close to you or feel more secure. It's probably the most sheltered, most scenic, closest to town, shallowest, or whatever. Why did you choose that spot! That's probably why they did too.

I'm guilty of this close proximity anchoring many times over. As are all of you. As of yet I've never bumped into anyone though and if someone starts to bitch to me about being too close they usually get a real reason to bitch.

 

[alexsailor]

I'm American so for sure I can't anchor. Regardless, I'd like to address this thought about another boat coming into a bay and anchoring next to you. I'm not sure what you consider close or how big the bays are, but most times the reason you chose to be there is the same as theirs, not that they want to be close to you or feel more secure. It's probably the most sheltered, most scenic, closest to town, shallowest, or whatever. Why did you choose that spot! That's probably why they did too.

I'm guilty of this close proximity anchoring many times over. As are all of you. As of yet I've never bumped into anyone though and if someone starts to bitch to me about being too close they usually get a real reason to bitch.

Let me be very specific: I understand if you look for a shelter that there should be some compromise. But safety first. Over privacy.
And it happened many times that I arrived to a bay late evening and I took not the best spot. Actually I drooped anchor where there was enough space (although many would go straight to the crowd).
So it was not the best place but tenable. And I stayed there another day. And when most of other boats left the next day, new one started to arrive. And guess what? I was the target. Not in the best place but still I got neighbors. That is what I am talking about.
I do not mind neighbors as far as it is not dangerous for me or them.
And this year such "neighbors" damaged my boat...

 

[ffiill]

Proabably bad weather. Last week there were some thunderstorms.
I had one in Petriti/Corfu and next day in Garitsas bay Corfu. Several sy had problems with dragging...
Where are the photos?

Again where are photos-I am not into CIA monitoring via their Facebook website.

 

[Palarran]

Let me be very specific: I understand if you look for a shelter that there should be some compromise. But safety first. Over privacy.
And it happened many times that I arrived to a bay late evening and I took not the best spot. Actually I drooped anchor where there was enough space (although many would go straight to the crowd).
So it was not the best place but tenable. And I stayed there another day. And when most of other boats left the next day, new one started to arrive. And guess what? I was the target. Not in the best place but still I got neighbors. That is what I am talking about.
I do not mind neighbors as far as it is not dangerous for me or them.
And this year such "neighbors" damaged my boat...

I agree with you on "safety first" but personally think your argument has less to do with the dragging of anchors as it does with your annoyance of other boats around you. This issue is constantly discussed on all the sailing forums I've read and most people are really complaining about other boats entering their zone - like that own it - rather then worry about dragging. I get it but am pretty fed up with it also. Just because a boat is the first to the prized spot in a anchorage doesn't mean I'm going to the crappy side so they can maintain their privacy. Courtesy is to maintain some distance based on available space and weather conditions but other then that, anchor where you want.

 

[Metabarca]

A story I enjoy is that of the battle of Lissa of 1870 when the wooden Austro-Hungarian fleet was attacked by the Italian ironclads. The Austro-Hungarian admiral (an Austrian who must have been reading up his biography of Nelson) bellowed out in Triestine dialect to his Dalmatian crew "Demoghe dentro!" ("Let's at 'em!") and laid into the French ships manned by mainly Venetian crews who spoke much the same dialect... Funny old world.
Hey, Alexsailor, if you're interested in a berth around here, Monfalcone is your best bet, as you probably know. I'm in a club in Trieste but there's a waiting list. Or you could try one of the clubs in Sistiana (Sešljan), which has a number of Slovene boats (or rather, Italian boats belonging to Slovenes living in Italy).
As a matter for the historical record, let it be known that I (and my brother) were the first foreigners to climb Triglav after independence, where we found the new Slovene flag already flying! The last time I was there, there were some very enterprising young men who had humped a first crates of beer up (two days' hike) and were doing a roaring trade.

 

[RichardS]

Hi Alex

I'm still in Croatia and I understand your frustration with Croatian desire to empty your wallet - although I don't feel that as badly as you 'cos in the UK we're used to paying the highest prices in Europe for eveything. Even identical products in France, Spain or Germany are usually marked-up for the UK market.

However, as someone who drives through Austria, Slovenia and Croatia 3 or 4 times a year, I have to ask you what you think about the Slovenian motorway vignette. It's pure extortion at around three times the cost of Austria or Croatia! I only use the motorway from the Karavanke Tunnel through to Lubjliana so the price per km is painful. I've wondered about not using the motorway but I think it would cost me a lot of time.

Richard

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hi Alex

I'm still in Croatia and I understand your frustration with Croatian desire to empty your wallet - although I don't feel that as badly as you 'cos in the UK we're used to paying the highest prices in Europe for eveything. Even identical products in France, Spain or Germany are usually marked-up for the UK market.

However, as someone who drives through Austria, Slovenia and Croatia 3 or 4 times a year, I have to ask you what you think about the Slovenian motorway vignette. It's pure extortion at around three times the cost of Austria or Croatia! I only use the motorway from the Karavanke Tunnel through to Lubjliana so the price per km is painful. I've wondered about not using the motorway but I think it would cost me a lot of time.

Richard

Time cost nothing Richard that business about time is money only applys to the working class , not the sailing class

 

[Metabarca]

Here here! The Slovene motorways are indeed a rip-off (and built with EU money). At one of the border crossings with Italy, you have to drive through a petrol station to avoid the motorway; if you're not in the know, you're an easy target.
Richard, you could try driving from Villach to Tarvisio, Udine and Trieste. Cost about €11 for the Italian motorway. Then it's about an hour on a very pretty road to Rijeka (the last bit of which, in Croatia, is on motorway again). You could even do Tarvisio to Amaro by main road: it's fast, uncongested (and free!) and would save about €4 or 5 each way.
But don't forget to fill up in Austria (off the motorway) as petrol and diesel are far more expensive in Italy. Or have enough to get you to Slovenia where the price is about the same as Austria.

 

[RichardS]

Time cost nothing Richard that business about time is money only applys to the working class , not the sailing class

The sailing class - I like it Vic. They should re-shoot that David Frost sketch with the two Ronnies and John Cleese to include your new 4th class of person.

Thanks also to Metabarca for the tip about going through Italy. I'll have a look at some alternatives although, to be honest, although the Slovenian toll seems high compared to the total cost of the journey it's trivial really and at least it's not like the French tolls (which we bypass completely now) where in summer you can spend as much time queuing at the peage booth as you do actually driving!

Richard

 

[Metabarca]

Well, the alternative is to drive to Kransjka Gora, drive over the Vrsič pass and down the Soča valley which is splendid, stopping to buy a cheese from a malga, then turn right at Kobarid (Caporetto) into Italy, stop off for some wine tasting in the Collio, nip over to San Daniele and buy a ham (much better than Parma), stop near Udine to buy grappa from Nannini, then drive down to somewhere on the coast near Trieste for some fresh fish...

 

[alexsailor]

@RichardS
I think that vignette system is not a fair one.
But Austria has it (and no one is complaining, Swiss... etc). Also Croatia is thinking to implement them and they were the loudest when we got it.
But calculate the cost of motorway form Zagreb to Split and back and then check the Slovenian vignette price and compare it...

@metabarca
Slovenian motorways were not build from EU money. Where did you get that data?
Most of the motorways were build before we entered the EU.
Now, since we entered EU, there is money from EU funds- but same goes for all EU countries (truth is that some of them are paying more that they are getting...).

I know it is frustrating for someone wanting to travel from Trieste (Italy) to, let say Umag (Croatia), trough Slovenia and has to buy a vignette.
GPS system would be the most fair one but then you would have to buy transmitters and that would also bother someone (or everybody).

I wrote yesterday that we have first to admit our own mistakes and then point a finger to others.
Being objective is something that is very hard and only a few can do it...

If someone is traveling trough Slovenia, stop in Ljubljana. Beer (or two, three...) on me (so the vignette price would hurt less and of course to meet good fellow sailors!

 

[Metabarca]

Dober dan! I'm pretty sure at least part of the motorway network was built after Slovenia joined the EU (but before it joined the Euro and Schengen). Anyway, it doesn't matter. The vignette is ok as an idea, but it's a lot more expensive than Austria and, as you say, it's irritating if I'm going just to Koper from Trieste as the alternative is a series of small roads (and I think but I'm not sure that technically Slovenia is in contravention of the Treaty of Osimo in charging for that stretch: the treaty is why it's free in Italy from Trieste to Monfalcone).
But I've just seen that the annual vignette is €55, less than I thought, so perhaps I'll get one of those in future... I love the Saturday market in Ljubljana, for instance...

 

[sailaboutvic]

Ŷ

Well, the alternative is to drive to Kransjka Gora, drive over the Vrsič pass and down the Soča valley which is splendid, stopping to buy a cheese from a malga, then turn right at Kobarid (Caporetto) into Italy, stop off for some wine tasting in the Collio, nip over to San Daniele and buy a ham (much better than Parma), stop near Udine to buy grappa from Nannini, then drive down to somewhere on the coast near Trieste for some fresh fish...

I think the point richard was making is to find a cheaper way home , not find a good shopping route

 

[alexsailor]

Hi Alex

I'm still in Croatia and I understand your frustration with Croatian desire to empty your wallet - although I don't feel that as badly as you 'cos in the UK we're used to paying the highest prices in Europe for eveything. Even identical products in France, Spain or Germany are usually marked-up for the UK market.

Richard

Regarding prices in Croatia: I know very well prices in Croatia for years (also from times when there was Yugoslavia- but that does not matter now).
Comparing Croatia prices vs British avg. income is not the right way. You should compare Croatian prices with, let say, Greek prices. So what kind of service you get for your money when cruising around.
Of course there are always exceptions but in average my two months cruise every year in Greek waters cost me far less than in Croatia and we (me and my girlfriend) eat outside, drink beer, coffee...

Then I spend at least one or two weekends every month out of the season on my boat that is located now near Šibenik (Croatia). When I calculate all the motorway expenses for Croatian motorways, they cost me a lot more then yearly Slovenian vignette. And again, I think vignette system is not a fair one!

My conclusion is that Croatia has a beautiful sea but it has become an expensive Disneyland for charter boats. Taking in consideration the mass of all boats, prices etc... South Peloponese is a paradise for me
On the other hand, my parents still keep their house in Istra (Croatia) and they enjoy the local cuisine.
Everybody has to find something that suits them.
For me, sailing is freedom and such freedom is limited for me in Croatian waters. Every year is worse...

 

[Davy_S]

 

[Davy_S]

Webcam.
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/paxoswebcam

 

[Metabarca]

I think one should consider the prices not only in comparison with other countries but also with the average costs and wages in that same country, and this makes Croatia extortionate in terms of mark-up. As Alexsailor intimates, the charter traffic accepts anything (in terms of price and quality) because its investment in time is small, but the result for we long-termers is that we feel we're being taken for a ride... Not for nothing are many boat owners skipping Croatia altogether and going to Greece (and I'm talking about Austrians and Germans who keep their boats here); at least the Greeks are friendly!
Istria has remained a bit apart from all this, at least outside August and certainly away from the coast. Another great thing is that it has truffles!