Passing port to port

[Quandary]

How wide does a channel need to be before you are happy to ignore this rule?
Running down Kyle Rhea with at the start of the ebb with about 3kts of tide already under us on Wed. we met a latecoming yacht motoring up against the tide by hugging the Skye shore, he then came out to mid channel to pass us on the conventional side before heading back in to the weaker tide. The next morning we were surfing down the Sound of Mull with a strong gusty following breeze (16-22kts) and freezing horizontal rain, twice we had small motor sailers bashing up against the wind and waves in the middle of the Sound changing course to pass port to port; with one we could not put in a gybe for about ten minutes when he changed course to get the right (left) side of us, the Sound is several miles wide.
I can understand it in the canal or busy narrow channels but surely it is fine just to hold your course when there is little traffic and plenty of room? its what I do anyway.
Cruising conditions up here are diabolical this year, cold, cold gusty winds, frequent squalls, heavy rain and hail, unreliable weather forecasts which change on every bulletin. Tobermory on Wed. night, every visitors mooring and pontoon berth taken by 19.00 but the pubs are quiet and the street deserted as everyone hid from the weather and debated about where to go.
It looks like our summer was over in April this year.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Cruising conditions up here are diabolical this year, cold, cold gusty winds, frequent squalls, heavy rain and hail, unreliable weather forecasts which change on every bulletin.

And how. My three week trip to the islands ended up as three days on the Clyde. Grrr. Is Snooks hiding somewhere north of the border?

 

[capnsensible]

Green to Green
Red to Red
All in safety
Go ahead

 

[Dougie_the_Mate]

I asked Mrs Dougie the same question last week as we passed the Cloch on our way back to Rosneath.

You are right about the conditions. It is the same in the Clyde. We have only been on the boat for about 10 days so far since she was launched and 8 of them have been spent in harbours sheltering from gales.

Last Friday was the only really nice day this month. At Port Bannatyne last week we met a lovely lady who is sailing on her own for the summer, having had her boat transported up from the Solent, who said on Thursday evening as it settled 'I began to wonder if the sun ever shone here'.

 

[Kelpie]

I had an interesting port-to-port issue not far from one of your examples.
It was back at the start of April, we were at the end of a pretty dodgy passage from Inverie and heading for Kyleakin, engine was not playing ball and I expected it to cut out without warning. We were on the approach to Kyleakin, very strong wind a few degrees off the nose, motoring and hugging the windward (port) side of the channel for obvious reasons. A fully laden well-boat appeared on our starboard, which was the leeward but also deeper side of the channel. He proceeded to turn straight across us so as to pass port-to-port. This meant that we had to head down to what was a not very nice lee side of the channel. This also placed him in the shallower side of the channel so there was no advantage to him.
I learned a few lessons that day- one being that I need a cockpit mic so that I can hail ships in all weathers (washboards were in due to poor conditions, so radio effectivley not usable).
I also invented some new swear words to shout at passing shipping.

 

[RichardS]

If you are obviously not on a collision course, it seems a bit mad to change course to avoid a collision which you weren't going to have! (and probably more likely to produce a collision to boot!)

Richard

 

[Skylark]

If you are obviously not on a collision course, it seems a bit mad to change course to avoid a collision which you weren't going to have! (and probably more likely to produce a collision to boot!)

Richard

Seems like a common sense approach so I'll support it. Although I imagine that the ColReg police will be along shortly to tell us the definitive answer

 

[Ubergeekian]

Last Friday was the only really nice day this month. At Port Bannatyne ...

Last Friday morning was bloody horrible at Port Bannatyne - when I had final work to do before launching. As soon as Jumblie went in the weather turned lovely. Oh well, the painting can wait till next year ...

 

[Sgeir]

I can understand it in the canal or busy narrow channels but surely it is fine just to hold your course when there is little traffic and plenty of room? its what I do anyway.

In the Sound of Mull, and Kyle Rhea for that matter, I'm pretty sure that's what most of us do, providing there is little traffic and plenty of room; I would perhaps also suggest that there needs to be a reasonable understanding of each vessel's intentions and no risk of collision.

As a modus operandi, yours seems to work for most boats in the area, including the Calmac ferries who are always very careful with small boats in their vicinity. The only ones I tend to avoid are the Yeoman bulk carriers, who show almost almost invisible cylinder shapes.

Apart from a couple of motor boats and a converted MFV, the only vessels that we've had to call up on Ch16 have been miltary ones; British and German naval boats may not necessarily respond over the radio, but they'll make a minor but obvious course deviation in acknowledgement. The exception was a French naval vessel that appeared to attempt to run us down in the passage between Lismore and Lady's Rock. That was genuinely terrifying. We were under sail and in the starboard side of the channel; we radioed them to no response, then they turned port for what would have been a head-on collision had we not started the engine and turned even further to starboard, rather closer to the rocks than was wise. I doubt if we cleared the French boat by more than 40m.

They again did not respond to radio contact so we then made a general call on 16 advising other boats in the area that the French navy vessel was being handled in a dangerous manner.

 

[Tom Price]

Pass the port!

Which way? And that's about as relevant as anything else in this scenario. Have just been into Pompey and there were as many peeps in the Entrance passing on the 'wrong' side as being correct.
There was a recent post about that location and the assertive behaviour of the Harbour Patrol, but without real clarification.

Richard's contribution above is sound commonsense:
"If you are obviously not on a collision course, it seems a bit mad to change course to avoid a collision which you weren't going to have (and probably more likely to produce a collision to boot!)"

But that doesn't cater for the pedant adhering to the 'green to green' red to red' rule. And in the event of any confusion resulting in a collision or grounding, legal beagles will simply quote Col Regs. What else can they do?

I'm very interested in what ideas follow - but please broaden the debate to south of Hadrian's Wall!

 

[Nostrodamus]

I was motoring up the Orwell against the wind the other day staying on the right side of the channel and passing port to port with a good few vessels. Then along came a sailboat with his jib unfurled hugging his port and my starboard side of the channel. When it was obvious that is where he wanted to be I moved over passing starboard to starboard. When I looked across he also had his engine on but how much it was being used I do not know. At least he waved.

 

[capnsensible]

Which way? And that's about as relevant as anything else in this scenario. Have just been into Pompey and there were as many peeps in the Entrance passing on the 'wrong' side as being correct.
There was a recent post about that location and the assertive behaviour of the Harbour Patrol, but without real clarification.

Richard's contribution above is sound commonsense:
"If you are obviously not on a collision course, it seems a bit mad to change course to avoid a collision which you weren't going to have (and probably more likely to produce a collision to boot!)"

But that doesn't cater for the pedant adhering to the 'green to green' red to red' rule. And in the event of any confusion resulting in a collision or grounding, legal beagles will simply quote Col Regs. What else can they do?

I'm very interested in what ideas follow - but please broaden the debate to south of Hadrian's Wall!

Seems you dont get the green, green and red, red bit.

It means that both boats are safe under that aspect and can carry on. No risk of collision.

Hope this helps.

 

[Tom Price]

Engine?

Wasn't he flying a black conel in the foretriangle to indicate what he was up to??
Some hope!!

Interesting how raggies rewrite the rulebook to suit themselves.
Was out in the Harbour last weekend proceeding at about 4 knots so as not to disturb dinghies racing, but it was quite windy and many kept overtaking us - giving a one-finger salute because we didn't get out of the way!

 

[Sgeir]

Wasn't he flying a black ball in the foretriangle to indicate what he was up to??

Why would he do that?

;-)

 

[prv]

Wasn't he flying a black ball in the foretriangle to indicate what he was up to??

What - anchored?

Pete

 

[Cruiser2B]

How wide does a channel need to be before you are happy to ignore this rule?
Running down Kyle Rhea with at the start of the ebb with about 3kts of tide already under us on Wed. we met a latecoming yacht motoring up against the tide by hugging the Skye shore, he then came out to mid channel to pass us on the conventional side before heading back in to the weaker tide. The next morning we were surfing down the Sound of Mull with a strong gusty following breeze (16-22kts) and freezing horizontal rain, twice we had small motor sailers bashing up against the wind and waves in the middle of the Sound changing course to pass port to port; with one we could not put in a gybe for about ten minutes when he changed course to get the right (left) side of us, the Sound is several miles wide.

The only rule that should have applied here was Rule 18 - power stays out of the way of sail. There is no actual rule that says you must pass another vessel port to port. The only two rules that are applicable in the port/port debate are rules 9 and 14. In rule 9 it says you are to stay as far to starboard as is safe and practicable. The key here is the term 'practicable' - especially for a sailing vessel where it might be necessary to tack across the breadth of a channel, or due to wind/tide, stay to the port-side then that is practicable. Rule 14 - the head-on rule - applies only between two power-driven vessels; they have to be on reciprocal or near-reciprocal courses and a risk of collision needs to exist. The prescribed action is for both vessels to alter course to starboard, effectively forcing a port to port passing. If their courses would have them pass green to green at a safe distance then there is no requirement for them to pass port to port.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Wasn't he flying a black ball in the foretriangle to indicate what he was up to??
Some hope!!

Interesting how raggies rewrite the rulebook to suit themselves.

Well if he was moving then I hope not! If you are going to be pedantic, at least get the rules right.

Jamie

 

[colingr]

Say no more

 

[Nostrodamus]

Wasn't he flying a black ball in the foretriangle to indicate what he was up to??
Some hope!!

Interesting how raggies rewrite the rulebook to suit themselves.
Was out in the Harbour last weekend proceeding at about 4 knots so as not to disturb dinghies racing, but it was quite windy and many kept overtaking us - giving a one-finger salute because we didn't get out of the way!

Hey, I am a raggie but the channel got narrow and we were head into the wind so had no sail up and were under power. I had no problem with moving but was just a little unclear with his intention. The engine was on but I don't know if using it to power the boat or not.
We were flying an upsidedown scull and crossbones, eight lobster pots, and a flasing orange light so he must have known what we were doing.

 

[Tom Price]

Oops!

[QUOTE=prv"what - anchored?"

Thanks - need a trip to Specsavers.
moral; don't hit the PC after you've
been at sea since an 0530 tide.
TG for the edit facility!