Paperwork needed when buying a boat and making some changes...

[Iain C]

Happy 2018 everyone!

Following on from this thread...

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?487617-Oh-no-another-quot-which-boat-quot-thread

...I'm excited to say that I'll be shortly be completing the deal on a Bavaria 32. I want to understand legally what paperwork etc I need to complete the transaction. It should in theory be as simple as it gets...it's a boat belonging to another member of my club, so there's no brokerage involved, it's a cash (bank transfer) sale (deposit already paid).

So question 1 is what paperwork do I need to get signed to transfer ownership? Bill of sale? Does this have to be in a specific format?

Question 2 is what else do I need to do immediately? Obviously I need to insure her in my name and presumably amend CG66 details, and get the MMSI and SSR info changed. Anything else?

Question 3 is around a name change...I don't like the current name for a number of reasons, so once I've decided on a new one I'll want to get that sorted. So, I'm thinking insurance company, CG66, SSR, MMSI, and of course the physical name change on the boat. Anything else?

Question 4 is sail number...she does not seem to have a sail number, either builder's chronological number or RYA issued GBRxxxx number. I suppose I should check with the RYA just in case it's been issued but numbers have never been stuck on the sail. However assuming there is nothing registered, how do I do this? I'll be doing the odd club race and the RTIR so could do with one ideally.

If there's anything else I've missed do please let me know...I guess these questions must get asked a lot!

 

[Poecheng]

I will have a crack at part one and suggest you should have asked this question a few weeks ago before you entered the deal. Looks like you are part-way through it now but it will probably make no difference at all.
Sounds like it is a non-survey purchase.
You do not merely need to prove ownership but its VAT status as well so you need to make clear that completion will occur when you have ALL of the following:
a) the boat (keys, manuals etc)
b) the inventory as agreed in writing is checked off (yes you do need it in writing so both minds are demonstrably together).
c) the original VAT invoice showing VAT paid in the EU.
d) completed Bill of Sale (ensuring it has the words 'free of encumbrances')

There is little point in trying now to impose a legal framework for a sequence that is largely finished. Seems like it is pay up/get the boat so I have focussed just on that simple position. A very careful person would insure before completion as there is a potentially insurable risk at present; most would wait until completion on the basis that title (ownership) and risk will pass at the same time in a transaction such as this.

Google will provide you with the RYA Bill of Sale and the DofT Bill of Sale

 

[Kwik Decision]

1) The RYA publishes a standard bill of sale which you can print out and use. This (assuming she is not part 1 registered, and as you talk about SSR would seem to be the case) is the document which is signed to change ownership. As you're wanting to change name, it is vitally important that the hull identification number is recorded on the bill of sail. Ensure you get the original invoice, which shows that VAT was paid, as part of the sale.
2) the MMSI no wont change, but you'll need to re-licence the VHF in your name. The SSR is similar. When we bought last year, I changed the boat name before re-licensing the VHF and redoing the SSR, so I'd only need to do those things once.
3) you may need to tell the marina or harbour master, depending where you'll keep the boat
4) if you want to race you'll need a sail number. Mine was issued by the RYA at no cost (gold member) details on their web site. There are other organisations which can also issue sail numbers, but if your main is unadorned it is likely she doesn't currently have one.

The RYA advice on buying a boat, and link to their bill of sale is here, although I note you need to be a member to access. I would say is worth joining if you're not already a member.
http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/legal/buying-a-boat/Pages/hub.aspx

 

[VicS]

The rya website will answer many of your questions

RYA for bill of sale documents. See http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/legal/buying-a-boat/Pages/hub.aspx#

Ofcom site re VHF licence, call sign and MMSI. You will have to relicence the VHF but the call sign and MMSI should remain unchanged

https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/ssr/ssr/ regarding SSR

Renaming a vessel is steeped in tradition and superstition. It can a very risky thing to do . See http://boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/rename.htm for the correct protocols.

GBR sail numbers are issued by the RYA .. details somewhere on the website. Class/ makers numbers are issued by the builder , sometimes by an owners association. A sail number is useful for identification and usually required for racing. GBR numbers for major events but not for less formal club racing
http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/classes-measurement/Pages/sail-numbers.aspx

 

[ashtead]

As a former Bav owner I hope you have many years of great sailing with her. In relation to point 4 there will be an allocated builders number which should show on the documentation issued by the manufacturers selling agent . You will also find a number on the hull ( I seem to recall it's on the stern as is molded into the GRP but this might vary with models) You don't say if yours was originally sold the uk but if it was I would expect a sales invoice from Opal or Clipper to be provided by your seller which should answer point . If it has been allocated a GBR number would some notice of this not be with papers? If you haven't already have a look at posts on Bav owners website which might have more info on hull numbers etc

 

[Tranona]

The key physical identification for the boat is the HIN number which is moulded into the the aft stern quarter of the boat and should appear on all the key documents - the Builders Certificate, Declaration of Conformity, original and subsequent BofS and original commercial invoice (which is the VAT evidence). If the boat was imported by Clipper (or its predecessor Opal) then all the original documents will be correct. Bavaria do use a commission number, but it really has no meaning, just being the internal factory identifier. However all the records at the factory rely on the HIN.

The key document for checking Title - that is the authority to transfer to you is the Bill of Sale and ideally there should be a BofS for all previous changes in ownership. As outlined in the RYA guidance, you should ensure that all documents are inspected and completed then exchanged for the final payment. The boat then becomes yours, so it makes sense to take physical possession. There is no need to do anything else with regard to ownership - the signed BofS is your Title, but of course you have to make the changes to radio and SSR etc. changing name just requires applying the new name to the boat and making sure it is on all the documents that need a name - insurance, radio, SSR etc.

 

[Iain C]

Ashtead...thanks for the thoughts...I'm sure I'm going to absolutely love all the extra room, h&c pressurised water, wheel steering, performance etc, and as much as I'll be very sorry to see my much loved Sabre sold (hopefully!), the Bav should usher in a new chapter in my sailing as we'll now be far better set up for cruising with our 2 year old son.

Poecheng...to be honest this whole transaction has been very much based on trust, and even though you do hear of disasters, I'm sure it will all be fine. To be fair a lot of the risk has been on the previous owner rather than I...told him my current situation and gave him a very modest deposit and the boat was removed from the market whilst I waited/chased for some financial stars to align, but as the timescales suited both of us as fellow club members it's all worked out fine (sale of the Sabre is not relevant BTW!). Of course we will both ensure that all legal stuff is 100% correct now we are at the point where we are concluding the deal (as per original timescales), but it's all been good so far. He's giving up sailing, so the new boat comes with everything on board bar his toolbox. No, I'm not bothering with a survey...I've seen far too many obvious things on boats that were missed by surveyors, so I don't have much faith TBH. I've been over the boat thoroughly myself, access to everything on the B32 is very good, and my insurance company basically said "no point in a survey on a 2004 B32 as far as we're concerned". As such, she will be cheaper to insure than my Sabre (despite being worth many times more monetarily)

Thanks everyone for all the other info...I am an RYA member so that looks like an excellent resource for dotting i's and crossing t's.

Thanks again!

 

[ashtead]

Iain C sounds like you have a great boat for family sailing. based on our experience of 13 years with our 34 you might want to look at the h&c connection to the water heater as ours leaked there a couple of times due I think to hot pipe cracking at join and rudder condition if out of water. Generally all the bits are from well known brands as you will know but if vessel has original sails from Elvstrom (might not I appreciate) these were not brilliant which was one weakness we thought but easily replaced at a price.

 

[Iain C]

Thanks for that. The G1 is very good, but the main was pretty shot, however I have already managed to acquire another perfectly good B32 main for a bargain £100 from a Facebook group so that will do me fine for now. The main on this boat is slab reefing which is good...I have sailed a B32 and a B40 with in mast furling and I really did not like it...and I also think the design and cut of the in mast furling main will mean stretching and age will affect it more than a conventional sail. There's also a storm jib which I don't think has ever been used, but I will be looking to acquire a cruising chute ASAP...I'm a dinghy sailor too so going downwind without a kite up just seems all wrong!

 

[ashtead]

I dont wish to open up another debate on in mast furling as it's rather like a debate as to merits of marmite for some on this forum however I am totally with you on preferring a stack pack etc particularly at this size and we have stayed with in at 10foot longer boat length with no issues to date and hopefully if your bargain main doesn't have a third reef point at that price you can have one fitted. If you are looking for a chute the Selden short pole might also worth consideration BTW .

 

[Tranona]

Thanks for that. The G1 is very good, but the main was pretty shot, however I have already managed to acquire another perfectly good B32 main for a bargain £100 from a Facebook group so that will do me fine for now. The main on this boat is slab reefing which is good...I have sailed a B32 and a B40 with in mast furling and I really did not like it...and I also think the design and cut of the in mast furling main will mean stretching and age will affect it more than a conventional sail. There's also a storm jib which I don't think has ever been used, but I will be looking to acquire a cruising chute ASAP...I'm a dinghy sailor too so going downwind without a kite up just seems all wrong!

In mast is of less value in that size rig plus the main is smaller than on later boats. For the same reason the need for a cruising chute is less pressing as the standard genoa is quite large and the boat does not suffer as much off the wind as later boats. I had a 37 from 2001 and the in mast was good, but the genoa was a handful, whereas my new style 33 has a bigger main (still in mast) than the old 37 and a smaller jib so looking forward to next season with the cruising chute that I have ordered. The value of in mast depends in part on whether you are an active (young?) sailor or an old codger like me who likes an easy life.

Worth looking at the independent Bavatia forum which has just been re-activated on www.bavariayacht.org

 

[Iain C]

Ashtead...yes, I do intend to fit a short bowsprit...I actually built a carbon one (from a piece of broken 18' skiff mast) for the Sabre and it worked very well (see below). I'll do the same on the Bavaria...although this time I'll probably use the Selden deck rings etc but just fabricate the carbon pole itself.

Tranona...mid 40's so not quite in the "old codger" bracket just yet. However the B40 with in mast furling I had on charter once was a total pain...tension on the outhaul when stowing was totally critical otherwise the main would end up folding over on the mid upper leach and jamming. There was more sweating and swearing wrestling with that bleddy thing on one trip than in every other time I've stowed a main. The IMF system basically turned a one person job into a two person job as far as I was concerned! I appreciate that a well used charter boat with baggy old rags was probably not the best example of the system, however the prospect of any kind of system where bits are hidden away potentially preventing you from getting your sails away scares me TBH. I'm sure we've all had foul ups on genny systems too, but at least you can just motor round in circles to sort that one out!

Home made bowsprit...excuse the beer in my hand but it was my 40th birthday!

 

[Tranona]

In mast if properly set up and operated is as reliable as any other system. You are right - does not tolerate old baggy sails very well, nor the boom set at an incorrect height. Never any problems with either my 37 (which was a charter boat so well abused) or my current 33.

I often have a chuckle at the threads on here about the difficulties of setting up an effective slab reefing system, particularly if taking lines back to the cockpit. All those blocks, loads of line, friction, difficulty of getting the bunt under control etc. I know it can be done well if you spend on the right gear, but it makes the "problems" of in mast seem insignificant.

Anyway the Bavaria controls are as good as you can get and the 32 has an excellent reputation for being a good blend of comfort and performance.

Your photo brings back memories - I learned to sail in a Sabre just like that in the early 1970s when they were the thing to have (unless you went with the crowd and had a Centaur). Very solid boat - one of 3 built by gas engineers in one of the shore based workshops on the natural gas pipelines in Suffolk.

 

[Leighb]

One tip which I don’t think has been covered relates to SSR. Make sure you register the change of ownership and the name change together. If you do them separately you will have to pay twice. I was told this by the MCA at Swansea who were very helpful.

 

[Iain C]

Sabres are great boats...I will be sorry to see mine go, I really will. She still looks fabulous for a boat that is now 46 years old, and I am aware that back in the day she was a good sized family cruiser, but times move on and the room and comfort of the B32 is very alluring! My Sabre is a fin keeler too, and I've often seen 6.5 to 7kts out of her with a clean bottom...I'd take a Sabre any day over a Centaur...in a different class IMHO. Many years of happy sailing has been had in her...lots of weekend Solent pottering, France, Channel Islands, West Country, the odd club race and a number of RTIRs, including some of the very windy ones in the last couple of years.

I installed cockpit reefing on her, and never had any issues with friction. Mind you it's a very simple system with separate lines for tacks and clews, and everything is routed outside the boom...with all hardware picked up for peanuts off eBay etc. As a racing dinghy sailor I absolutely cannot stand control systems that don't work properly!

 

[Bobc]

Use the standard RYA Bill of Sale document.

If he is the original owner, ask him if he still has the original invoice showing VAT paid. If not, or if he' not the original owner, don't lose sleep over it.

Once you have completed the deal, decide what name you want to use, and then complete the SSR registration online.

Insure it

Do the radio license bit online, which will give you an MMSI number.

Don't worry about sail numbers. For club racing and RTI you don't need it.

Go sailing.

 

[lpdsn]

In mast if properly set up and operated is as reliable as any other system.

Although if the OP races a bit his idea of properly set up will involve a bit of pre-bend and rake not to mention using the backstay for trimming, so that's all working against using in-mast furling.

 

[lpdsn]

Do the radio license bit online, which will give you an MMSI number.

Although he'll want to ensure he can keep the same MMSI to avoid the cost of re-programming kit.

 

[Iain C]

Guys I suspect that I'll end up doing at least half a season on the current vessel name. However it's in a foreign language, two words, and to look at there's potentially many ways of pronouncing it as a Brit, hence the main reason for changing it. So I need to get my thinking cap on with regards to a "new" name which I suspect will be some way down the track. Not sure if that changes anything?

 

[Kwik Decision]

Guys I suspect that I'll end up doing at least half a season on the current vessel name. However it's in a foreign language, two words, and to look at there's potentially many ways of pronouncing it as a Brit, hence the main reason for changing it. So I need to get my thinking cap on with regards to a "new" name which I suspect will be some way down the track. Not sure if that changes anything?

I think you'll generate a far bit of extra work by delaying, as you'll need to repeat various registrations etc when you get round to changing the name. Peeling off the old name, and buying and applying new name stickers really isn't a big job. If you're struggling, I'm sure you'll get various new name suggestions if you ask on here!