Owner change if vessel on Part One?

[davethedog]

All going well we are looking at buying a nw to us boat that is currently on Part One register and UK flagged.

How easy to change the owners to ourselves (survey going well etc) and retain the vessel on part one as that would suit our future cruising plans? We are eligible for part 3 (as we have on the current boat) but as the potential new vessel is on part one it would be prudent to keep her on that.

Cheers
DTD

 

[Tranona]

Easy. Bill of Sale and complete the transfer document and pay the fee. Use the MCA Bill of Sale.

 

[davethedog]

Good news then...survey on Thursday...then go from there

 

[dgadee]

I am on Part 1 for one boat. Too bureaucratic a system, in my view. They wanted nearly £50 and documentation for a change of Yanmar 30 hp engine to a new Yanmar 30 hp engine. SSR will do me when Part 1 registration ends.

 

[Poecheng]

We have just gone through it - change of ownership on Part 1. It is as, and as easy as, Tranona has said.

I know I am repeating some things and setting it out Noddy-style but...

1. Critical that you use the MCA Bill of Sale and that it the up to date one. If buying through broker do not just assume it is the MCA one. Specify it as part of the deal. The critical bit is at the bottom of page one where the seller deletes the bit that says there is a mortgage etc and then initials to say there are no mortgages etc.

2. You will find the MCA are quicker and more efficient than you can ever imagine - we had email replies same day on Bank Holidays over the Christmas Period.

3. Fill in the Declaration of Eligibility form - your right to be a Part 1 owner.

4. Go online to Make a payment to Maritime and Coastguard Agency (RSS) and tell it the name and Official number and then pay your £105.

5. Send the MCA the present Part 1 Certificate (these are online so not unique), Bill of Sale, the Declaration of Eligibility. I also sent them a print of the payment at (4) above but probs not necessary.

6. You will then be sent a link for an online digital certificate.

The only thing is I have not been sent back the original Bill of Sale - just emailed them and don't know whether they do it. I took a good scan of everything anyway.

 

[IanCC]

We have just gone through it - change of ownership on Part 1. It is as, and as easy as, Tranona has said.

I know I am repeating some things and setting it out Noddy-style but...

1. Critical that you use the MCA Bill of Sale and that it the up to date one. If buying through broker do not just assume it is the MCA one. Specify it as part of the deal. The critical bit is at the bottom of page one where the seller deletes the bit that says there is a mortgage etc and then initials to say there are no mortgages etc.

2. You will find the MCA are quicker and more efficient than you can ever imagine - we had email replies same day on Bank Holidays over the Christmas Period.

3. Fill in the Declaration of Eligibility form - your right to be a Part 1 owner.

4. Go online to Make a payment to Maritime and Coastguard Agency (RSS) and tell it the name and Official number and then pay your £105.

5. Send the MCA the present Part 1 Certificate (these are online so not unique), Bill of Sale, the Declaration of Eligibility. I also sent them a print of the payment at (4) above but probs not necessary.

6. You will then be sent a link for an online digital certificate.

The only thing is I have not been sent back the original Bill of Sale - just emailed them and don't know whether they do it. I took a good scan of everything anyway.

They sent mine back, but my experience of MCA was more like a window into a bygone age.

 

[IanCC]

I am on Part 1 for one boat. Too bureaucratic a system, in my view. They wanted nearly £50 and documentation for a change of Yanmar 30 hp engine to a new Yanmar 30 hp engine. SSR will do me when Part 1 registration ends.

Not even the cost being a problem. They asked for original invoices for installation of replacement engine that happened 20years ago.

 

[neil1967]

Dealing with the MCA at the moment for change of address and renewal of our part 1 on our leisure yacht - couldn't be easier. Helpful responses by email within 24 hours.

 

[dgadee]

Dealing with the MCA at the moment for change of address and renewal of our part 1 on our leisure yacht - couldn't be easier. Helpful responses by email within 24 hours.

Yes, but not sure what the advantages of Part 1 are for most owners. When I bought the boat MCA said it would be better to keep it on Part 1, but didn't explain why. I still don't know why they said that.

My certicate says draft is 1.4m. It is actually 1.8m but they have some bizarre measurement system which I don't understand. Why? I don't own a ship.

Edit: only one boat with one name is an advantage if you don't want to share. But "Rocky" can't stop someone registering "Rocky of Donaghadee".

 

[Tranona]

Yes, but not sure what the advantages of Part 1 are for most owners. When I bought the boat MCA said it would be better to keep it on Part 1, but didn't explain why. I still don't know why they said that.

My certicate says draft is 1.4m. It is actually 1.8m but they have some bizarre measurement system which I don't understand. Why? I don't own a ship.

The big difference is that you are registering your title to the yacht. Registration performs 2 functions. The first is evidence of the flag state of the ship (required under International law outside your territorial waters) and Part 3 register (SSR) does this. The second is a register of title which indicates that you legally have title to the boat and it cannot be sold without your agreement. This is also useful for some as if they want to raise money against the security of the boat, the lender can register their interest via a mortgage with the registry.

Generally speaking potential buyers feel more comfortable with registered title as otherwise the title they get from the seller is based on self declaration with no independent confirmation of clear title which you get from the registry. For example I have just bought a boat where the registration lapsed in 2011 and there is confirmation of removal from the register. There is no record of the transfer of title from the then owner to the next, but a BofS from that owner to the person I bought it from. So although the last 2 owners signed that the boat was sold with clear title, there is always the chance that the previous owner could claim title. Nothing unusual about this - the lack of formal recognition by way of compulsory registration means that many boats have unclear trails of title changes. So if you have a boat on Part 1 the marginal cost of renewing (and even registering engine changes) is a bargain. On the other hand, if like me with the boat I am selling you have a complete trail it is less valuable. I bought the boat new and have the complete trail - Builders certificate, BoS from builder to dealer, BoS from dealer to me, original invoice. So the buyer is pretty confident that when he pays me a near 6 figure sum he knows he will own the boat absolutely - and can subject to measurement (yes it is arcane - but who cares) he can register his title.

 

[dgadee]

I have an old certificate in front of me. It says:

"A Certificate of Registry is not proof of ownership.
Details of registered mortgages are not shown."

So not sure that title is an advantage from Part 1. It might be a bit of evidence in a paper trail, but no more.

 

[Tranona]

I have an old certificate in front of me. It says:

"A Certificate of Registry is not proof of ownership.
Details of registered mortgages are not shown."

So not sure that title is an advantage from Part 1. It might be a bit of evidence in a paper trail, but no more.

While it is not on the certificate to be valid any mortgage has to be registered. The first thing a buyer does is get a search from the registry. If selling through a broker he does this on behalf of the buyer, often before listing as part of his due diligence. Just as the broker handling the sale of my boat wanted all the original documents before he would take it on.

Don't forget this registration system has been in use for many years and is the same as used for multimillion £ ships so is pretty well sorted!

 

[syvictoria]

The second is a register of title which indicates that you legally have title to the boat and it cannot be sold without your agreement.

I have to disagree with the part in bold. The onus is on any subsequent owner to transfer the registration, or the previous (registered) owner to cancel it. There's no process in place restricting the boat from being sold on, legitimately or otherwise, without either of the above happening.

 

[doug748]

...................So not sure that title is an advantage from Part 1. It might be a bit of evidence in a paper trail, but no more.

It's a mighty piece of evidence though, as it is backed up in statute and is likely to trump most things if you ever have to go to law in a sale that goes wrong.
We can imagine that on buying a boat, the following week a solicitor's letter arrives saying someone claims to own half of it and they have a bill of sale to prove it. Or a fraudster sells a boat to two people. It is the element of the register that is key, not the piece of paper.

It is a big advantage to sellers as it reassures buyers. They will know who holds the title, their address and key details of the boat. If any of these things don't tally then further questions need to be asked.

.

 

[davethedog]

Thanks all and as the vessel is currently on Part 1 thinking it would be a good idea to keep her on Part 1 anyway.

See how the survey goes next week before we go any further!

 

[dgadee]

The MCA sugggest SSR is useful for roof of ownership, too:

"Registration is not compulsory but there are many cases where you may find it beneficial:

• You can prove your boat’s nationality when sailing outside of UK waters.
• Some marinas and ports abroad may require you to prove you are the owner of the boat before allowing you access. Registration is a simple way to prove this.
• If your vessel is stolen, damaged or goes missing, registration can assist authorities and/or emergency services to trace the owner(s) and get the vessel back to you.
• Registration may also help with insurance or registering a claim in the event of an incident."

And it only costs £35 and has less hassle involved. No measurement, no picking a name no-one else has, but no ability to register a mortgatgage.

 

[Tranona]

The MCA sugggest SSR is useful for roof of ownership, too:

"Registration is not compulsory but there are many cases where you may find it beneficial:

• You can prove your boat’s nationality when sailing outside of UK waters.
• Some marinas and ports abroad may require you to prove you are the owner of the boat before allowing you access. Registration is a simple way to prove this.
• If your vessel is stolen, damaged or goes missing, registration can assist authorities and/or emergency services to trace the owner(s) and get the vessel back to you.
• Registration may also help with insurance or registering a claim in the event of an incident."

And it only costs £35 and has less hassle involved. No measurement, no picking a name no-one else has, but no ability to register a mortgatgage.

But it still does not give you legal title - that comes from the trail of Bills of Sale or registration of those transactions.

The only point there that is true is the first one. The second is making an assumption that others will accept it a proof of ownership when it clearly is not. The last two are simply pie in the sky. Part 3 is not a searchable public register of ownership. The only way it will help is that the registration number should be on the boat (but is of course is easily removed). There is no way of linking that number to you except that if you find your boat with the number still on it your certificate might help you show it is yours. The last is just made up nonsense. No insurer makes registration on Part 3 a condition of insurance nor require it in the event of a claim.

Of course they have missed the most important reason for registration and that is only registered ships can apply to fly their club's defaced (blue, normally) ensign. It is for this reason I shall be registering my new boat on the SSR.

 

[dgadee]

But it still does not give you legal title - that comes from the trail of Bills of Sale or registration of those transactions.

The only point there that is true is the first one. The second is making an assumption that others will accept it a proof of ownership when it clearly is not. The last two are simply pie in the sky. Part 3 is not a searchable public register of ownership. The only way it will help is that the registration number should be on the boat (but is of course is easily removed). There is no way of linking that number to you except that if you find your boat with the number still on it your certificate might help you show it is yours. The last is just made up nonsense. No insurer makes registration on Part 3 a condition of insurance nor require it in the event of a claim.

Of course they have missed the most important reason for registration and that is only registered ships can apply to fly their club's defaced (blue, normally) ensign. It is for this reason I shall be registering my new boat on the SSR.

Agree. But no blue flags for me. The crew flies her Scots' ensign. I think mainly to annoy the English.

 

[Tranona]

I have to disagree with the part in bold. The onus is on any subsequent owner to transfer the registration, or the previous (registered) owner to cancel it. There's no process in place restricting the boat from being sold on, legitimately or otherwise, without either of the above happening.

Sorry, rather a clumsy way of saying it is only you as the registered title holder that can transfer title legally. This becomes particularly important when there is more than one title holder, for example my boat is owned 50/50 with my wife so cannot be sold legally without both agreeing and signing the Bill of Sale. You are right that it is for the buyer to register his title, but of course he cannot do this without evidence of title from the owner(s).

There are more potential complications to consider and it is useful to read the RYA guidance on title, particularly when an owner dies or when the registered owner is not the beneficial owner.

 

[IanCC]

You can check part 1 registry before buying. It took me a month to get a response. They advised checking again on the date of transfer to make sure it hadn't been sold ir borrowed against in the interim. Nice idea, some chance. We decided nobody would lend agaibst a 40 year old boat and the fact the vendor held a great pile of previous invoices was the better proof of title in the day.