Original boat paperwork

[steved]

I'm in the process of buying a 2017 'one owner from new' boat, the agreed purchase price is over £200k, a couple of questions on the scanned paperwork that I've seen so far:

- The VAT certificate is on plain paper and not the boat manufacturers headed notepaper, it has been signed by a director of the company, am I correct in thinking it should be on company headed paper?
- The Bill of Sale is saying 'in consideration of the sum of £xxxxxxx paid by xxxxxx the receipt whereof is hereby acknowledged'. The amount paid has been redacted ,am I correct in assuming that when I get the original paperwork it should be in the unredacted form?

The original sales invoice from the builder to the buyer has been requested, but has not been supplied as yet.

The boat was built in the UK, and I intend cruise Europe as well as UK

Thanks all

 

[rafiki_]

I'm in the process of buying a 2017 'one owner from new' boat, the agreed purchase price is over £200k, a couple of questions on the scanned paperwork that I've seen so far:

- The VAT certificate is on plain paper and not the boat manufacturers headed notepaper, it has been signed by a director of the company, am I correct in thinking it should be on company headed paper?
- The Bill of Sale is saying 'in consideration of the sum of £xxxxxxx paid by xxxxxx the receipt whereof is hereby acknowledged'. The amount paid has been redacted ,am I correct in assuming that when I get the original paperwork it should be in the unredacted form?

The original sales invoice from the builder to the buyer has been requested, but has not been supplied as yet.

The boat was built in the UK, and I intend cruise Europe as well as UK

Thanks all

Are you buying through a broker or dealer? If yes, hand the problem to them. When I bought my new to me boat in April this year, I received a full doc pack from the broker with the original sales doc, VAT doc, and every subsequent sale.

 

[steved]

Are you buying through a broker or dealer? If yes, hand the problem to them. When I bought my new to me boat in April this year, I received a full doc pack from the broker with the original sales doc, VAT doc, and every subsequent sale.

I'm buying through a broker, and have raised my queries on the paperwork supplied so far, deposit has been paid, and a few survey issues are being sorted. My main point is should I see all the correct paperwork in advance of paying the balance, and how important is the VAT certificate not being on Company headed paper.

 

[Plum]

I'm in the process of buying a 2017 'one owner from new' boat, the agreed purchase price is over £200k, a couple of questions on the scanned paperwork that I've seen so far:

- The VAT certificate is on plain paper and not the boat manufacturers headed notepaper, it has been signed by a director of the company, am I correct in thinking it should be on company headed paper?
- The Bill of Sale is saying 'in consideration of the sum of £xxxxxxx paid by xxxxxx the receipt whereof is hereby acknowledged'. The amount paid has been redacted ,am I correct in assuming that when I get the original paperwork it should be in the unredacted form?

The original sales invoice from the builder to the buyer has been requested, but has not been supplied as yet.

The boat was built in the UK, and I intend cruise Europe as well as UK

Thanks all

The only time you are likely to be asked to show the VAT receipt is when visiting the EU and although the chances are very slim indeed, the official will want so see a document that looks official. Does it?

 

[EugeneR]

You get copies of previous Bills of Sale to prove chain of ownership, not price. A seller has every right to redact the amount he paid, IMHO.

That said, for the first purchase, I'd expect a VAT invoice, not a bill of sale or VAT certificate?

 

[Ribtecer]

Contact the manufacturer, they should be able to supply you with a copy of the original VAT invoice.

 

[steved]

You get copies of previous Bills of Sale to prove chain of ownership, not price. A seller has every right to redact the amount he paid, IMHO.

That said, for the first purchase, I'd expect a VAT invoice, not a bill of sale or VAT certificate?

That's my point. We've all seen on Bills of Sale '£1.00 plus other considerations', however, in this case I'm buying from the first owner, and he has a Bill of Sale from the builder that has been redacted, and so far I have not seen a VAT invoice. This particular type of boat is zero rated for VAT, hence my concern to make sure everything is in order.
Whilst I accept it unlikely that a European customs official will query a VAT certificate that is not on Company headed paper, you just never know..

Am I being too fussy?

 

[Ribtecer]

That's my point. We've all seen on Bills of Sale '£1.00 plus other considerations', however, in this case I'm buying from the first owner, and he has a Bill of Sale from the builder that has been redacted, and so far I have not seen a VAT invoice. This particular type of boat is zero rated for VAT, hence my concern to make sure everything is in order.
Whilst I accept it unlikely that a European customs official will query a VAT certificate that is not on Company headed paper, you just never know..

Am I being too fussy?

No, it's now or never for you to get this right for you.

 

[benjenbav]

I'm in the process of buying a 2017 'one owner from new' boat, the agreed purchase price is over £200k, a couple of questions on the scanned paperwork that I've seen so far:

- The VAT certificate is on plain paper and not the boat manufacturers headed notepaper, it has been signed by a director of the company, am I correct in thinking it should be on company headed paper?
- The Bill of Sale is saying 'in consideration of the sum of £xxxxxxx paid by xxxxxx the receipt whereof is hereby acknowledged'. The amount paid has been redacted ,am I correct in assuming that when I get the original paperwork it should be in the unredacted form?

The original sales invoice from the builder to the buyer has been requested, but has not been supplied as yet.

The boat was built in the UK, and I intend cruise Europe as well as UK

Thanks all

The sales invoice should be illuminating. If, as you say, the boat was zero-rated, you’d expect an invoice that reads:

Boat: £XXXXXX

VAT @0% £0

Total: £XXXXXX

 

[westernman]

My boat was imported by the previous owner from Canada into the UK. The original VAT receipt from UK customs was the second or third carbon copy of a form filled out by hand and was almost illegible and extremely unconvincing.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

That's my point. We've all seen on Bills of Sale '£1.00 plus other considerations', however, in this case I'm buying from the first owner, and he has a Bill of Sale from the builder that has been redacted, and so far I have not seen a VAT invoice. This particular type of boat is zero rated for VAT, hence my concern to make sure everything is in order.
Whilst I accept it unlikely that a European customs official will query a VAT certificate that is not on Company headed paper, you just never know..

Am I being too fussy?

This stinks.

Why is it redacted? Why no VAT invoice? 'Zero rated for VAT' opens up a new potential load of questions. If you take this as gospel you'll probably be fine (ie, unlikely to ever be challenged), until you try and sell. Then in a whole world of pain that you can't fix. Walk away unless you get originals from builder certificate onwards and a bulletproof explanation and confirmation of the VAT status.

 

[KevinV]

This stinks.

Why is it redacted? Why no VAT invoice? 'Zero rated for VAT' opens up a new potential load of questions. If you take this as gospel you'll probably be fine (ie, unlikely to ever be challenged), until you try and sell. Then in a whole world of pain that you can't fix. Walk away unless you get originals from builder certificate onwards and a bulletproof explanation and confirmation of the VAT status.

Zero-rated, ie "qualifying ships" is interesting reading:

Ships, trains, aircraft and associated services (VAT Notice 744C)

 

[Anibal]

This stinks.

Why is it redacted? Why no VAT invoice? 'Zero rated for VAT' opens up a new potential load of questions. If you take this as gospel you'll probably be fine (ie, unlikely to ever be challenged), until you try and sell. Then in a whole world of pain that you can't fix. Walk away unless you get originals from builder certificate onwards and a bulletproof explanation and confirmation of the VAT status.

I agree. It is a lot of coins to toss and therefore if I was the potential buyer I would like everything to be in order. Too many red flags for my liking. When I bought my new boat in June (brand new) I received all sort of documents from the dealership. These appears to be prints out in colour but everything was wet signed by the dealership. The only document that appears to be a photocopy is the builder’s certificate but I can live with that.
Put pressure on the seller (dealer) to obtain the documents to your satisfaction or threaten to walk away. If they tell you it will take time or whatever, request your deposit back before your cooling off period lapses.

 

[steved]

Thanks all

Correct paperwork has been requested, as youve probably guessed the boat is not from one of the mainstream builders, but there's no excuse for poor paperwork considering it's one owner from new.

The boat is a 'qualifying ship' under VAT Notice 744C, however, my research is finding that not all suppliers are keen to invoice at 0% for services or supplies that are permitted within the VAT Notice.

 

[westernman]

The boat is a 'qualifying ship' under VAT Notice 744C, however, my research is finding that not all suppliers are keen to invoice at 0% for services or supplies that are permitted within the VAT Notice.

My guess is because the definition of 'qualifying ship' is not water tight (see what I did there).

Therefore the builders are not keen to draw attention to the fact they supplied a 0 rated ship in case it gets questioned sometime later whether the ship really qualified or not and that they end up liable to pay VAT at the normal rate (instead of 0%).

 

[aerobat]

A VAT certificate has a VAT registration number where it can be checked its valid. This is the crucial point , not the paper its written on .

I bought my boat also from first owner and he gave me the original invoice when delivered new . The price is not a secret and can ( plus minus discount ) be googled . Sounds fishy to me if they redact or hide it .

Call customs and verify the certificate is real

 

[Rafal]

If I could have this question.
I bought repositioning boat from City Council for around 25% value. I'm doing extensive refit. Boat doesn't have original vat invoice. If in future I would like pay vat to be on safe side, will I pay based on what I paid, or what value will be in future?

 

[Anibal]

Would the price you paid to the city council didn’t include VAT? I would have thought it did. In any case, I believe you pay VAT on the price you paid, not the final valuation after you invested time and money refitting.

 

[benjenbav]

Would the price you paid to the city council didn’t include VAT? I would have thought it did. In any case, I believe you pay VAT on the price you paid, not the final valuation after you invested time and money refitting.

VAT being a tax on transactions, Rafal’s question is not so much whether Rafal paid the right amount as whether the city council did when the boat was supplied new.

There are endless threads on these forums about whether this is a real risk for a subsequent owner (i.e. whether HMRC can take the boat from them because the first buyer didn’t pay the right VAT) or whether that is a bogeyman that lives in the imaginations of boat buyers.

I’m in no sense expert enough to comment on the former; but I know that the latter is a widely held concern to the extent that, even if folks are happy that they themselves are safe, they worry that a buyer in the future will decline to buy without paperwork proving that VAT was correctly accounted for on the first purchase from the manufacturer.

 

[Little Ricky]

This stinks.

Why is it redacted? Why no VAT invoice? 'Zero rated for VAT' opens up a new potential load of questions. If you take this as gospel you'll probably be fine (ie, unlikely to ever be challenged), until you try and sell. Then in a whole world of pain that you can't fix. Walk away unless you get originals from builder certificate onwards and a bulletproof explanation and confirmation of the VAT status.

..."walk away". I wouldn't walk away, but I'd tell the broker that I'd seen another boat with paperwork ready, and Im sea trialling it before the new year. When he s**ts his pants because he's already spent the commission on prezzies, everything will miraculously be in order.