Orca attack

[nortada]

Do these pingers work? Any evidence? Would be great if they did but to buy 5 is bit expensive for a punt. How are they kept submerged during sailing?

So far as I am aware, the Orca problem has yet to arrive in UK water so it would make it a very expensive, unnecessary punt for all, other than those in the Orca Risk Area.

For those in the risk area, provided the pingers work, they are a lot cheaper than a tow-in, new rudder and any other repairs required. As such bit of insurance.

Speaking of insurance, how long before insurers refuse cover for Orca Damage

 

[Pavalijo]

Fishtek’s minimum order in the U.K. is also 5 at £75 each. Carriage to Europe is £30 approx and I’m not sure they charge any less for the UI.
Is anyone interested in sharing an order for delivery in U.K.? PM me if so.

 

[Travelling Westerly]

So far as I am aware, the Orca problem has yet to arrive in UK water so it would make it a very expensive, unnecessary punt for all, other than those in the Orca Risk Area

It's not for UK waters! Why would I want anti Orca pingers in the UK?

I asked if they work and any supporting evidence. Do you have anything to support their effectiveness?

 

[nortada]

No, and as yet, nor does anybody else.

It is going to take time and be very difficult to assess the true value of these pingers against orca attack.

Are you in, or heading into orca attack territory

 

[Fascadale]

No, and as yet, nor does anybody else.

It is going to take time and be very difficult to assess the true value of these pingers against orca attack.

Are you in, or heading into orca attack territory

I’m hoping to in June/July

I may equip the boat with a scaffold pipe and big hammer, maybe something more noxious than usual to go down the head, perhaps a pinger or two plus well crossed fingers.

 

[Travelling Westerly]

you in, or heading into orca attack territory

Heading yes

 

[nortada]

Heading yes

Best of luck and please keep us advised on how you get on

 

[john_morris_uk]

We’re heading that way in July so we’d be interested if there was any evidence they were effective?

 

[Travelling Westerly]

We’re heading that way in July so we’d be interested if there was any evidence they were effective?

I've read on the Orca FB page that a few have started off towards N Spain/Portugal and some aren't bothering with pingers.

Do the Orcas need to understand/learn what the pingers are or are they a physical deterant in that it causes them discomfort if they get too close?

The fact some aren't bothering makes me wonder if they are any good?

 

[Kelpie]

AFAIK nobody with a pinger has been attacked. This is obviously not proof that they work. The vast majority of boats pass through the risk areas without incident.
We recently sailed from the Algarve and past Gibraltar without seeing anything at all, but just a couple of days later the attack in Cadiz occurred. We do not have a pinger, but we do watch the updates closely and try to avoid sailing at night through the risk areas.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I've stoped posting here but I tho this be of some interest to people heading south.
Not that many of us cruisers gives a dam what the spainsh government or the RYA come to that thinks when it comes to the safety of our boats or crews .

The UK Royal Yachting Association (RYA) has been contacted by the Government of Spain. They have stated that: using an engine and propeller, to reverse a boat towards an orca, the use of "noise makers", "pingers" Acoustic Deterrent Devices (ADD) attached to boats, and throwing of pyrotechnics, flares, etc at approaching whales are forbidden by Spanish law.

The RYA has written to the UK Government and Government of Spain to clarify the legal situation and penalties that could be incurred if a crew take such action.

Richard Hill
Planning & Environment Officer
Royal Yachting Association.

 

[25931]

I've stoped posting here but I tho this be of some interest to people heading south.
Not that many of us cruisers gives a dam what the spainsh government or the RYA come to that thinks when it comes to the safety of our boats or crews .

The UK Royal Yachting Association (RYA) has been contacted by the Government of Spain. They have stated that: using an engine and propeller, to reverse a boat towards an orca, the use of "noise makers", "pingers" Acoustic Deterrent Devices (ADD) attached to boats, and throwing of pyrotechnics, flares, etc at approaching whales are forbidden by Spanish law.

The RYA has written to the UK Government and Government of Spain to clarify the legal situation and penalties that could be incurred if a crew take such action.

Richard Hill
Planning & Environment Officer
Royal Yachting Association.

Are they suggesting that pingers are harmful ? I take it that Spanish law does not prohibit the feeding of titbits such as a mouthful of rudder?

 

[Beneteau381]

I've stoped posting here but I tho this be of some interest to people heading south.
Not that many of us cruisers gives a dam what the spainsh government or the RYA come to that thinks when it comes to the safety of our boats or crews .

The UK Royal Yachting Association (RYA) has been contacted by the Government of Spain. They have stated that: using an engine and propeller, to reverse a boat towards an orca, the use of "noise makers", "pingers" Acoustic Deterrent Devices (ADD) attached to boats, and throwing of pyrotechnics, flares, etc at approaching whales are forbidden by Spanish law.

The RYA has written to the UK Government and Government of Spain to clarify the legal situation and penalties that could be incurred if a crew take such action.

Richard Hill
Planning & Environment Officer
Royal Yachting Association.

He was the one I spoke to. About as rewarding as speaking to that BBC zealot. He refused to let me have my say and just kept talking over me. I reported him to the Acting Chair and got a promise of action but it was only an email, written by RH I suspect.
This is one written by RH and several of his assumptions as to what I said are "not what I recollect"
Dear Mr Davies,
Thank you for your email.
I am sorry that you did not find our telephone conversation helpful, that was not my intention.
With respect to your point concerning provision of information to RYA members involved in an incident with Orcas/ Killer Whales, the RYA has provided advice on our website. The guidance addresses both the safety of boaters and the protection of the orcas. It aims to reduce the impact of an incident on boat and crew as well as the legal aspects. Here is the link to the RYA guidance on this issue: https://www.rya.org.uk/news/revised-orca-guidelines
You also asked about the availability of maps showing locations of orca incidents. The Atlantic Orca Working Group has compiled and mapped a database for 2021 here: Last interactions | Orca iberica.
As I stated in the phone call, please let me know if you think there is a need for any additional information that the RYA could provide. It should, however, be noted that the Atlantic Orca Working Group is the lead organisation with responsibility, not the RYA. We are assisting by providing guidance to members leaving UK on passage through the area. You will see from the RYA website, that we link to the information provided by the Atlantic Orca Working Group and have co-ordinated with them, although our guidance is focused more on safety. I understand that the Group also has data for 2020.
The RYA is not aware that any of the recorded incidents in 2020 and 2021 have resulted in a sinking nor a direct attack on a person. We have been advised that there is no record of an attack being carried out by an orca on a person in the wild. Internationally, we are only aware of two incidents that resulted in sinkings. These took place in the 1970s and appear to have been accidental rather than due to a deliberate attack.
I understand from our call that you may have links to recreational sailors in the area who have concerns. If this is via a club or association, it may be useful for either ourselves or the Atlantic Orca Working Group to contact them directly to make recreational users aware of the existing guidance for craft in the area or on passage from UK.
I would be interested in hearing further about your suggestion concerning reversing a craft’s engine when approached by an Orca. I note, however, that under Spanish law (similar for the UK, France and Portugal) it is an offence to cause death, injury or disturbance to a whale or dolphin (Article 4, Royal decree 1727/2007- BOE.es - BOE-A-2008-516 Real Decreto 1727/2007, de 21 de diciembre, por el que se establecen medidas de protección de los cetáceos.). I note that the Atlantic Orca Working Group has provided a useful guide on how to interpret the law whilst sailing in company with cetaceans (whales and dolphins): Regulation in Spain | Orca iberica
In developing our safety orientated guidance, the RYA are working on behalf of our membership to safeguard boat users from any legal liability due to an ill-considered action. Given the information provided by the Atlantic Orca Working Group and from our members, that have been involved in incidents, our guidance is proportionate and in-line with legislation.
Yours sincerely,

Richard Hill
Planning and Environment Officer
Royal Yachting Association
Tel: 023 8060 4228 E: richard.hill@rya.org.uk

RYA House, Ensign Way, Hamble, Southampton, Hampshire, SO31 4YA www.rya.org.uk T: 02380 604100 F: 02380 604299

From: S
Sent: 11 October 2021 11:10
To: richard.hill@rya.org
Cc: CEO <ceo@rya.org.uk>
Subject: Orca discussion

Richard
Thank you for your discussion this morning about Orca attacks on yachts off Spain and Portugal.
Your interaction with a member who helps pay for your wages was, to be frank, not very nice.
Your refusal to let me make my point without you interrupting me and refusing to listen to me was the most disturbing point along with your hectoring style of engagement.
Please consider this as an official complaint.
I have copied this in to the CEO.
Moving on, the link to the website which you discussed would be helpful.
Regards
S.....

 

[greeny]

He was the one I spoke to. About as rewarding as speaking to that BBC zealot. He refused to let me have my say and just kept talking over me. I reported him to the Acting Chair and got a promise of action but it was only an email, written by RH I suspect.
This is one written by RH and several of his assumptions as to what I said are "not what I recollect"
Dear Mr Davies,
Thank you for your email.
I am sorry that you did not find our telephone conversation helpful, that was not my intention.
With respect to your point concerning provision of information to RYA members involved in an incident with Orcas/ Killer Whales, the RYA has provided advice on our website. The guidance addresses both the safety of boaters and the protection of the orcas. It aims to reduce the impact of an incident on boat and crew as well as the legal aspects. Here is the link to the RYA guidance on this issue: https://www.rya.org.uk/news/revised-orca-guidelines
You also asked about the availability of maps showing locations of orca incidents. The Atlantic Orca Working Group has compiled and mapped a database for 2021 here: Last interactions | Orca iberica.
As I stated in the phone call, please let me know if you think there is a need for any additional information that the RYA could provide. It should, however, be noted that the Atlantic Orca Working Group is the lead organisation with responsibility, not the RYA. We are assisting by providing guidance to members leaving UK on passage through the area. You will see from the RYA website, that we link to the information provided by the Atlantic Orca Working Group and have co-ordinated with them, although our guidance is focused more on safety. I understand that the Group also has data for 2020.
The RYA is not aware that any of the recorded incidents in 2020 and 2021 have resulted in a sinking nor a direct attack on a person. We have been advised that there is no record of an attack being carried out by an orca on a person in the wild. Internationally, we are only aware of two incidents that resulted in sinkings. These took place in the 1970s and appear to have been accidental rather than due to a deliberate attack.
I understand from our call that you may have links to recreational sailors in the area who have concerns. If this is via a club or association, it may be useful for either ourselves or the Atlantic Orca Working Group to contact them directly to make recreational users aware of the existing guidance for craft in the area or on passage from UK.
I would be interested in hearing further about your suggestion concerning reversing a craft’s engine when approached by an Orca. I note, however, that under Spanish law (similar for the UK, France and Portugal) it is an offence to cause death, injury or disturbance to a whale or dolphin (Article 4, Royal decree 1727/2007- BOE.es - BOE-A-2008-516 Real Decreto 1727/2007, de 21 de diciembre, por el que se establecen medidas de protección de los cetáceos.). I note that the Atlantic Orca Working Group has provided a useful guide on how to interpret the law whilst sailing in company with cetaceans (whales and dolphins): Regulation in Spain | Orca iberica
In developing our safety orientated guidance, the RYA are working on behalf of our membership to safeguard boat users from any legal liability due to an ill-considered action. Given the information provided by the Atlantic Orca Working Group and from our members, that have been involved in incidents, our guidance is proportionate and in-line with legislation.
Yours sincerely,

Richard Hill
Planning and Environment Officer
Royal Yachting Association
Tel: 023 8060 4228 E: richard.hill@rya.org.uk

RYA House, Ensign Way, Hamble, Southampton, Hampshire, SO31 4YA www.rya.org.uk T: 02380 604100 F: 02380 604299

From: S
Sent: 11 October 2021 11:10
To: richard.hill@rya.org
Cc: CEO <ceo@rya.org.uk>
Subject: Orca discussion

Richard
Thank you for your discussion this morning about Orca attacks on yachts off Spain and Portugal.
Your interaction with a member who helps pay for your wages was, to be frank, not very nice.
Your refusal to let me make my point without you interrupting me and refusing to listen to me was the most disturbing point along with your hectoring style of engagement.
Please consider this as an official complaint.
I have copied this in to the CEO.
Moving on, the link to the website which you discussed would be helpful.
Regards
S.....

Well done with your interaction with RYA. I doubt they'll take any notice or action unfortunately. Track record.
As far as I'm concerned I'll do what I have to do to ensure the safety of my craft and the occupants.
If engaging astern and moving in a reverse direction is what it takes then so be it. I won't be "aiming" at the orcas. If they chose to swim into my prop then I can do little to stop them.
If I can get my hands on a pinger then I'll be deploying that as well as a deterrent should the need arise.
I've sold the old boat and now have a 21 footer so if they "attack" me I'm gonna do what a man's gotta do to even up the odds.

 

[Graham376]

RYA seem to have some real wankers on the staff, I've had little help or useful advice in the past, seems they're mostly interested in earning money from courses and racing. Strange that pingers are illegal, they're widely used on nets to warn dolphins and whales of the obstruction.

 

[greeny]

Up to now, I've only seen Spanish law quoted, so being in Portugal I don't give a monkey's and will use one if I can get one.
I'm fast running out of patience with the RYA and their inability/ reluctance to help their membership.

 

[sailingmartin]

Up to now, I've only seen Spanish law quoted, so being in Portugal I don't give a monkey's and will use one if I can get one.
I'm fast running out of patience with the RYA and their inability/ reluctance to help their membership.

Personally, I can see nothing wrong with Richard Hills’ email. All perfectly reasonable and informative. I am happy to continue to be a member.

 

[greeny]

Personally, I can see nothing wrong with Richard Hills’ email. All perfectly reasonable and informative. I am happy to continue to be a member.

We're all individuals and are entitled to our opinion based on experience. That's partly what forums are about, different opinions and sharing those in a polite way.

 

[dunedin]

Up to now, I've only seen Spanish law quoted, so being in Portugal I don't give a monkey's and will use one if I can get one.
I'm fast running out of patience with the RYA and their inability/ reluctance to help their membership.

I can’t see what the RYA can do to change the behaviours of a few pods of Orcas. And it has no jurisdiction, or indeed likely any influence, over law makers in Spain or Portugal. That would be for the local equivalents of the RYA to seek to do.
Plus the RYA membership covers everything from windsurfer to power boats, the vast majority operating primarily in UK waters. I would expect the number of Orca attacks involving RYA members to be a tiny percentage of the boats, and the percentage of RYA members passing Atlantic Spain and Portugal only a minuscule percentage of RYA membership.

PS. Are you even a member of the RYA, and what do you think the Uk sailing authority should do to influence wild animal behaviour hundreds of miles away?

 

[greeny]

I can’t see what the RYA can do to change the behaviours of a few pods of Orcas. And it has no jurisdiction, or indeed likely any influence, over law makers in Spain or Portugal. That would be for the local equivalents of the RYA to seek to do.
Plus the RYA membership covers everything from windsurfer to power boats, the vast majority operating primarily in UK waters. I would expect the number of Orca attacks involving RYA members to be a tiny percentage of the boats, and the percentage of RYA members passing Atlantic Spain and Portugal only a minuscule percentage of RYA membership.

PS. Are you even a member of the RYA, and what do you think the Uk sailing authority should do to influence wild animal behaviour hundreds of miles away?

Sounds like you're looking for an argument.
Not from me. I've already made my comment.
Oh by the way, I've been a member of RYA in excess of 30 years. I can't remember it's that long ago.