Solent sailer
Well-Known Member
Lovely looking project boat, not a holiday boat. Needs to be in a local boatyard for a couple of years for you to get her up together.
Opinions on this 'classic '38', please. :)
- Thread starter jazzdude
- Start date
jordanbasset
Well-Known Member
In relation to the deck the details does say
'
'
- Deck materials: Teak very good
[178529]
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As others have said, beautiful boat but potential money pit.
Someone else mentioned 10-15k, it could be much worse.
Standing rigging, running rigging, sails - 10-15k, electronics 5-10k, teak deck 20k, osmosis treatment 10k.
To get her, or any quality 38 footer of that age, in tip top shape you could be looking at 50k. It might be one reason it's being sold.
Someone else mentioned 10-15k, it could be much worse.
Standing rigging, running rigging, sails - 10-15k, electronics 5-10k, teak deck 20k, osmosis treatment 10k.
To get her, or any quality 38 footer of that age, in tip top shape you could be looking at 50k. It might be one reason it's being sold.
Buck Turgidson
Well-Known Member
That deck is no where near "very good"
Most of the plugs are discoloured meaning the screws are er.. screwed.
The caulking is crumbling too.
doug748
Well-Known Member
My instinct is it that it is the wrong boat. You have to be really 100% committed to the idea to take on a vessel like that.
I think it is a long term ownership job and you just might spend a moderate amount plus, decide it needs a lot more, and then have to sell at a discount. Thus you will have all the hassle of short term selling and do some useful money into the bargain. If possible better to find something you can be 100% about and waste your cash on that - like the rest of us : -)
I agree about the deck, the more you look at it the less attractive it becomes.
.
jazzdude
Active Member
My hopes of this boat suiting the purpose I set out are slowly dwindling with the reality of the situation, mainly the deck and messing about below decks with services etc.
The broker told me that it is in far better condition than it looks and that the owner 'meticulously' maintained it for his own use, and spent a fortune on a new engine and related services (he would do though won't he).
If it can satisfy my immediate needs of getting some sailing out of it now, and decide in a couple of years that its a keeper, I'm perfectly prepared to throw some cheap manual labour at it to rip off the teak and replace it with either gel coat or synthetic finish, and do the rigging while I'm at it.
Of course, this all also depends on a good survey to also determine that all is also well below the waterline.
Compared to having to go through this process with a Jeanneau or Bavaria of late 80s vintage which are up for similar money, I just can't get excited about them to be honest.
The broker told me that it is in far better condition than it looks and that the owner 'meticulously' maintained it for his own use, and spent a fortune on a new engine and related services (he would do though won't he).
If it can satisfy my immediate needs of getting some sailing out of it now, and decide in a couple of years that its a keeper, I'm perfectly prepared to throw some cheap manual labour at it to rip off the teak and replace it with either gel coat or synthetic finish, and do the rigging while I'm at it.
Of course, this all also depends on a good survey to also determine that all is also well below the waterline.
Compared to having to go through this process with a Jeanneau or Bavaria of late 80s vintage which are up for similar money, I just can't get excited about them to be honest.
Biggles Wader
Well-Known Member
If you really like it and want it at least take a step back and price it realistically from your point of view. If that means a lot less than the vendor thinks so be it. Walk if the price isnt right.
jazzdude
Active Member
What would you offer for it?
ashtead
Well-Known Member
Based on comments of others what would it be worth if you took the cost of replacing the teak deck and rigging off the asking price plus if needed a set of sails? I believe Griff Rays Jones bought an older boat and spent a few £ on it . Might this project not turn into problem which stops you moving to your ultimate liveabords vessel as are the issues raised by other forumites occur to your perspective purchasers. Far easier to trade on an well set up older Moody or suchlike where the current owner is retiring and there’s a large owners association full of helpful if conflicting advice. Do you have a reserve of cash if the problems become more serious than expected ? Are you going to be able to put under cover to do works ?
Tamar
Well-Known Member
Heart ruling head always turns out expensive. Who knows what is lurking under the deck, shame really as it looks a nice boat. Move on to one that you can sail away, it will turn up
doug748
Well-Known Member
With apologies for the thread drift.
Perhaps you don't have to go down that road. A roomy boat, with a bit a snap about it, might suit maybe a Sigma or similar:
1987 Sigma 362, Bangor Gwynedd - boats.com
perhaps:
1982 Contessa 38 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk
A better known production boat which does not pander to accommodation could offer what you want - and maybe much more of known quantity in the shorter term, plus easier to sell if you need to.
Just a thought, as they say.
.
CAPTAIN FANTASTIC
Well-Known Member
No more than half the asking price. There are a lot of boats around and there will be even more boats going cheap by next summer.
jazzdude
Active Member
Both nice boats, although the UK based boat would be too far and the Contessa over budget unless they entertain a cheeky offer.
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Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
Okdoke...
If we say that ( as a general rule) “ all boats cost the same , over a ten year period...”
( bear with me ?)
The more capital you put in upfront in buying newer, the longer before bigger expenses begin to kick in .. you just accept the cost of annual depreciation.. BUT that is the only cost . There is no additional lost sailing time/break downs/organisational time and indeed hand on time spent fixing, sourcing, replacing ageing stuff, stuff, more stuff...what one might call the true opportunity costs associated with older , complex yachts.. your time investment is part of your allocated time in good health and out there sailing and all that !
OTOH everyone needs a hobby .
Teak decks in the med , sandwich hull construction on an old Contessa would both be huge question marks to me .
The Sigma hmm, v experienced moulders, but again, nothing much updated in 10years that I could see in the description ? Tick tick krrchung..??
An engineer summarised assessing old mechanical things rather well ( and the op may relate to this from restoring classic cars perhaps).
“ the first half of the wear ?is a lot nicer than the second half...”?
If you really do go ahead with a teak deck , feel free to pm me, as and when, I have been there and done it . But ..I wanted to do it and had the time, skills and funds . And I bought really well to start with too . And retain a marque that is known, respected , proven , and niche popular without being too extreme ..works for me but I really had to work at it too?
So , good luck to the OP, you are definitely asking all the right questions
If we say that ( as a general rule) “ all boats cost the same , over a ten year period...”
( bear with me ?)
The more capital you put in upfront in buying newer, the longer before bigger expenses begin to kick in .. you just accept the cost of annual depreciation.. BUT that is the only cost . There is no additional lost sailing time/break downs/organisational time and indeed hand on time spent fixing, sourcing, replacing ageing stuff, stuff, more stuff...what one might call the true opportunity costs associated with older , complex yachts.. your time investment is part of your allocated time in good health and out there sailing and all that !
OTOH everyone needs a hobby .
Teak decks in the med , sandwich hull construction on an old Contessa would both be huge question marks to me .
The Sigma hmm, v experienced moulders, but again, nothing much updated in 10years that I could see in the description ? Tick tick krrchung..??
An engineer summarised assessing old mechanical things rather well ( and the op may relate to this from restoring classic cars perhaps).
“ the first half of the wear ?is a lot nicer than the second half...”?
If you really do go ahead with a teak deck , feel free to pm me, as and when, I have been there and done it . But ..I wanted to do it and had the time, skills and funds . And I bought really well to start with too . And retain a marque that is known, respected , proven , and niche popular without being too extreme ..works for me but I really had to work at it too?
So , good luck to the OP, you are definitely asking all the right questions
TernVI
Well-Known Member
I agree with all of that, except I don't think it's a particularly beautiful boat.
If the OP is looking to buy a boat and only keep it a few years, then I'd suggest buying something which can be sailed without spending much money on it and is then easy to sell.
vas
Well-Known Member
assuming OP will do the work in GR or CY, I doubt prices above reflect real costs down here.
also for a med boat, I'd question the need for 10k electronics upgrade. Dunno much about sails and rigging, so cannot comment on that.
would be rather worried if that's a cored deck (is it?) as teak is definitely shot!
V.
Shuggy
Well-Known Member
This may or may not be relevant. In 2009 I bought a 1971 GRP 43 footer in ok condition. She had been subject to a huge refit at C&N in Palma Majorca in 1998. She does - thank goodness - not have a teak deck. Since 2009 I have replaced:
Engine
All sails
Standing and running rigging
All hatches
All electronics
Primary winches
Windlass
Anchor & chain
Guardwires
Spinnaker pole
Boom paint
Mast paint
Full underwater epoxy treatment
Topsides paint (being done this winter)
All wiring
Autopilot
Upholstery
Heater
Bilge pumps
Water pumps
Toilet
Shower
Cooker
VHF
... and loads of stuff I can't remember* any more including cockpit tent, spray hood, blocks, tank level sensors, battery monitor, solar controller, switch panels, stereo, speakers, wheel leather, sail covers, lazyjacks, dinghy, life raft, gas solenoid, inspection hatches, mast/deck interface, sink drain pumps, nav lights, capping rail (in places), fenders, fridge (twice),
Yadda yadda. Old boats need love. The OP's target boat will need love. I've come to the conclusion that buying an old boat is like buying a new boat on finance - the end amount is about the same but you pay for it along the way with a small capital outlay! I wouldn't change what we did but anyone buying an MAB should keep their eyes firmly open.
That list makes me feel ill... £75k I think. Just about bearable over 12 seasons.
*clearly I can remember it all!
Engine
All sails
Standing and running rigging
All hatches
All electronics
Primary winches
Windlass
Anchor & chain
Guardwires
Spinnaker pole
Boom paint
Mast paint
Full underwater epoxy treatment
Topsides paint (being done this winter)
All wiring
Autopilot
Upholstery
Heater
Bilge pumps
Water pumps
Toilet
Shower
Cooker
VHF
... and loads of stuff I can't remember* any more including cockpit tent, spray hood, blocks, tank level sensors, battery monitor, solar controller, switch panels, stereo, speakers, wheel leather, sail covers, lazyjacks, dinghy, life raft, gas solenoid, inspection hatches, mast/deck interface, sink drain pumps, nav lights, capping rail (in places), fenders, fridge (twice),
Yadda yadda. Old boats need love. The OP's target boat will need love. I've come to the conclusion that buying an old boat is like buying a new boat on finance - the end amount is about the same but you pay for it along the way with a small capital outlay! I wouldn't change what we did but anyone buying an MAB should keep their eyes firmly open.
That list makes me feel ill... £75k I think. Just about bearable over 12 seasons.
*clearly I can remember it all!
Concerto
Well-Known Member
I have tried to avoid replying to this thread as too many people with All White Boats (AWB) are more interested in the accomodation in their boat rather than the sailing ability and easthetic look of a boat. There are plenty of fine older yachts built over the last 50 years or so to choose from. I have a Westerly Fulmar (32ft) which was first launched in 1980. I expect this will be my last boat due to my age, but I do not intend selling for anoth 10 years unless my health fails. When I was looking to buy 6 years ago I could afford to buy a new 32ft yacht with every extra on it, but I dislike the modern construction methods and how they sit on the water not in it. Through choice I wanted an older boat and I decided to buy a tired Manky Old Boat (MOB) and renovate it. Well I have not quite finished but almost there. I have spent more on the materials, doing all the work myself, than the boat cost to buy. There have been thousands hours of work, which I enjoy, which have not been costed. The boat is not worth close to what it has cost me, but it is still about a third of what a new boat would have cost. So I will loose a bit of money when I come to sell, but less than the depreciation I would have had off the new price boat. May be I have not sailed it quite as much as I could have done, but I do go sailing regularly. You can see the changes I have made in this PowerPoint presentation I gave earlier this year. https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/3/3f/Concerto.pdf
Looking at the details of the Noray 38, the work needed does not look that bad. I would rip off the teak deck . Then check for any soft spots in the deck and repair. Then fill any holes and paint the decks. The teak in the cockpit looks good enough to keep. Some replacements of some bits will be necessary, but will depend on your required standard of presentation. The standing rigging will need changing, you may need better sails (not always brand new) etc. As John Morris stated in post #2, about £10,000 to 15,000. The main guiding rule I would suggest is "Do not fix something that is not broken". Removing the teak and replacing the rigging will ensure the boat remains desirable to another future purchaser. I would say it is a contender to be viewed and if you like what you see, then make a cheeky offer at about 2/3 of the asking price.
Looking at the details of the Noray 38, the work needed does not look that bad. I would rip off the teak deck . Then check for any soft spots in the deck and repair. Then fill any holes and paint the decks. The teak in the cockpit looks good enough to keep. Some replacements of some bits will be necessary, but will depend on your required standard of presentation. The standing rigging will need changing, you may need better sails (not always brand new) etc. As John Morris stated in post #2, about £10,000 to 15,000. The main guiding rule I would suggest is "Do not fix something that is not broken". Removing the teak and replacing the rigging will ensure the boat remains desirable to another future purchaser. I would say it is a contender to be viewed and if you like what you see, then make a cheeky offer at about 2/3 of the asking price.
Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
1000 hours to remove that deck
Pay yourself or someone - say -a lowly £10 an hour ..
Oh and don’t forget the tools , disposables, epoxy, core, mat, 2pack or other finish coat ..
And the associated boatyard rent, covers, electricity and water . And travel to and fro, time and petrol . Every single day...
Still worth it ? Gonna ask a cheeky discount ?
PLUS a factor for all the other stuff which will continually relentlessly require , at best, attention .. hmm
Worth it ? Of course it is worth it ??.
And a Swan 38 facsimile ( hopefully with the same metal stiffeners and hull layup quality) is such a fabulous sailing machine.
The accommodation is fine enough, the sailing will be subliminal if that is what you are really into ..
So, Just need to find the right match between boat and its new caretaker for it.
But , I don’t see it as obviously one for the OP given his stated ambitions and short time frame for buying using and reselling /or keeping and sailing off on a Big Trip on a thoroughly sorted vessel . Hmmmm.
If it was a Swan tho, @ that price , it will have really good residual values to be recoverable ?
My story ( again, yawn)
I could have bought a NEW one of what I bought , R36, but I actually needed a project (!) ,worked out a way to add back in some value , and put the excess ‘ unspent’ money into nicer house purchase and as we know, houses ‘tend’ or trend to go up in value and be a bit more versatile in their uses and multi seasonal too than boats ( sadly !)
I hope the OP finds exactly something that what works for him ( or her) and gets to be playing all that Jazz , mellow under a Med sun, breeze , cockpit awning and without epoxy clagged fingers ?
Pay yourself or someone - say -a lowly £10 an hour ..
Oh and don’t forget the tools , disposables, epoxy, core, mat, 2pack or other finish coat ..
And the associated boatyard rent, covers, electricity and water . And travel to and fro, time and petrol . Every single day...
Still worth it ? Gonna ask a cheeky discount ?
PLUS a factor for all the other stuff which will continually relentlessly require , at best, attention .. hmm
Worth it ? Of course it is worth it ??.
And a Swan 38 facsimile ( hopefully with the same metal stiffeners and hull layup quality) is such a fabulous sailing machine.
The accommodation is fine enough, the sailing will be subliminal if that is what you are really into ..
So, Just need to find the right match between boat and its new caretaker for it.
But , I don’t see it as obviously one for the OP given his stated ambitions and short time frame for buying using and reselling /or keeping and sailing off on a Big Trip on a thoroughly sorted vessel . Hmmmm.
If it was a Swan tho, @ that price , it will have really good residual values to be recoverable ?
My story ( again, yawn)
I could have bought a NEW one of what I bought , R36, but I actually needed a project (!) ,worked out a way to add back in some value , and put the excess ‘ unspent’ money into nicer house purchase and as we know, houses ‘tend’ or trend to go up in value and be a bit more versatile in their uses and multi seasonal too than boats ( sadly !)
I hope the OP finds exactly something that what works for him ( or her) and gets to be playing all that Jazz , mellow under a Med sun, breeze , cockpit awning and without epoxy clagged fingers ?
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[178529]
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Going back to the OPs question, I think the consensus is "yes this is likely to be a money pit".
Also a 90s or low 20s AWB is likely to suite your days sails and odd weekends mmuch better. Also don't dismiss the improvement in sailing ability that modern boats bring.
However........ like many others on here I have been enchanted by Mads on Saillife effectively building from scratch a better version of a warrior 38. That will be one fantastic boat when he finally finishes it. It would be great to do something like that. As a financial proposition - completely nuts. Leaving aside his labour time over 4 years God only knows how much he has spent in materials.
