Opinions on boat types? Thinking of a motor sailer...

[little_roundtop]

Yes, I'm well aware that this is a public forum, and internet access is available to all.

Actually I was serious. You ask for help in choosing a boat and suggest that you're interested in a motor-sailer. Ok, then:

1) Sailing yachts are uncomfortable. There are limited seating options for passengers, with no back support, on hard surfaces. If it's not raining you can have a cushion though! Of course, you can go below, but then you'll miss the whole point of sailing.

Also true of motor-sailers.

2) Toilet and shower facilities aboard are ... well, you know. Don't pretend you don't!

Also true of motor-sailers.

3) Marina's look nice on postcards. But they are noisy - not just other boats, but local bars and tourists help too. And marina facilities? Personally, I'm not that keen on seeing men's wrinkled genitalia before breakfast. Also, queuing up to take is dump is for Glastonbury.

Well in the first place this is largely rubbish, and in the second place how will your choice of a motor-sailer help with this?

4) There is limited shelter on deck. Sun, spray or rain slowly saps your stamina over time. I'm told the bimini is only for light airs.

A motor-sailer does have a wheelhouse which will double as an excellent oven in the heat of the Med in summer. My bimini (and almost every other one I've ever seen) is quite happy in a full gale and it does a great job of keeping the sun and the rain off. If you can't tolerate a bit of spray then you shouldn't be on a boat.

So my comment reflected that you ask for advice on a boat and you start out by making it pretty obvious that you don't like boat life. So buy a caravan.

 

[boatmike]

thanks boatmike, I do enjoy sailing but as already mentioned by another my experience has perhaps been clouded a bit by the neccessary RYA stuff and a few uncomfortable moments. I guess what I'm really trying to do is preempt any moves by SWMBO in the future to tire of things and long for "proper house" - there'll be no need if I've thought of everything! Obviously this is a bit naive, but you can appreciate a lot of thought needs to go into making this kind of change.

If you enjoy sailing (as most of us do in the right conditions) then there are many ways to go. There is no such thing as a perfect boat. It's like looking for a perfect woman! I am reminded of the guy who spent 50 years as a single man until he eventually found her. Unfortunately she was looking for a perfect man.......
Living on board and cruising longer term requires a completely different set of compromises to a boat used for local fun sailing and 2 weeks holiday a year. Go to boat shows, join a yacht club, charter abroad (often a good start in re-calibrating your needs) and generally try as much as you can. If you have the budget you should really include catamarans in your search. They sail upright, have loads more space, dry out anywhere and will sail on wet grass.... From a liveaboard vewpoint they are ideal. Marinas often charge more though and they tend to be more expensive to buy, but there are bargains out there if as you suggest you are able to handle a bit of refit work. Good luck in your search! As an afterthought, don't be put off scouring the second hand marked and viewing what your money will buy in various catagories of boat. Also do seriously consider where and how you want to cruise. This might well tell you what you don't want and eliminate the unsuitable, which is the first step.

 

[Ben9000]

Actually I was serious. You ask for help in choosing a boat and suggest that you're interested in a motor-sailer. Ok, then:



Also true of motor-sailers.



Also true of motor-sailers.



Well in the first place this is largely rubbish, and in the second place how will your choice of a motor-sailer help with this?



A motor-sailer does have a wheelhouse which will double as an excellent oven in the heat of the Med in summer. My bimini (and almost every other one I've ever seen) is quite happy in a full gale and it does a great job of keeping the sun and the rain off. If you can't tolerate a bit of spray then you shouldn't be on a boat.

So my comment reflected that you ask for advice on a boat and you start out by making it pretty obvious that you don't like boat life. So buy a caravan.

Thanks Tony. As you can imagine it's very difficult and often confusing trying to imagine what will or won't work for me in the future.

The more experience I get, and the more I sail, I guess things will have a way of working themselves out. I can say with some confidence though that one of the things I won't be doing is trawling the internet looking for posts by people with less skills and experience than myself, then making snarky comments. But each to their own, eh?

 

[little_roundtop]

Thanks Tony. As you can imagine it's very difficult and often confusing trying to imagine what will or won't work for me in the future.

The more experience I get, and the more I sail, I guess things will have a way of working themselves out. I can say with some confidence though that one of the things I won't be doing is trawling the internet looking for posts by people with less skills and experience than myself, then making snarky comments. But each to their own, eh?

Despite what you might think I am trying to be helpful. Your list of "don't likes" precludes just about any small boat. I seriously wonder whether life on a small boat will suit you, so before you start narrowing your search to what you think might be the least unpleasant boat, you should try to get sailing time on as many different types of boats as you can. Only then will you begin to realise what works for you and what doesn't. But if you're serious about your four numbered points I'd look for something else to do.

And it does you no good at all to be rude to people, especially if you're asking for help. You have no idea when you might really need help....

 

[GrahamM376]

When we faced the choice 12 years from a background in traditional boats, the choice was a Moody type or a new, what is known as an AWB. We chose the latter, a Bavaria after trying them on bareboating, which made us realise how good they are at the job. Have not regretted it, and you will find many happy users of such boats. Still hanker after a Moody, but am always put off by the age and amount of work to get up to the same standard as my Bavaria - and the layout of the smaller (37 ish ones) is less suitable for Med living.Hope this helps.

This where you and I differ. We could have bought a brand new Bavaria or Bendytoy for the same price as the Moody + cost of updating. However, we prefer the Moody build quality and find the 376 is well suited to hot climates with standing headroom in 2 double berths + 2 ensuite heads, with no-one having to crawl into a berth under the cockpit as on quite a few boats. Granted, not as quick in light airs but very comfortable when things liven up. Deeper forefoot, low aspect Scheel keel and skegged rudder unlike many modern boats.

Each to their own, not a case of which is better but which we prefer.

 

[Davy_S]

I am pretty certain that the motorsailor deckhouse would be murderous in the summer south of Ushant.

I am curious as to why you think so. A motorsailers deckhouse will open all windows and doors allowing fresh air to blow through, at the same time sporting a boom tent/cover just like a yacht or motorboat would do. If you stop the sun hitting the top of the accommodation, this is half the battle. If like a mobo or motorsailer you can open more ports than a yacht, you will stay cooler.

I quite like the thought of a Motorsailer for the Ionian, there is either plenty wind, or non, so you have the engine donk donking when you want, then if the wind direction suits, put the sails up. I think as long as you look upon it as a displacement mobo, with sail assistance, you would be ok.
I would not go back to a full sailing yacht now, but would consider a Watson, or Fisher, 30ft ish.

 

[Ben9000]

Despite what you might think I am trying to be helpful. Your list of "don't likes" precludes just about any small boat. I seriously wonder whether life on a small boat will suit you, so before you start narrowing your search to what you think might be the least unpleasant boat, you should try to get sailing time on as many different types of boats as you can. Only then will you begin to realise what works for you and what doesn't. But if you're serious about your four numbered points I'd look for something else to do.

And it does you no good at all to be rude to people, especially if you're asking for help. You have no idea when you might really need help....

You are right. Possible future scenario:

me: Help! we're sinking!

you: Well, I did tell you to get a caravan....

 

[little_roundtop]

You are right. Possible future scenario:

me: Help! we're sinking!

you: Well, I did tell you to get a caravan....

See....you do have a sense of humour.

 

[Tranona]

This where you and I differ. We could have bought a brand new Bavaria or Bendytoy for the same price as the Moody + cost of updating. However, we prefer the Moody build quality and find the 376 is well suited to hot climates with standing headroom in 2 double berths + 2 ensuite heads, with no-one having to crawl into a berth under the cockpit as on quite a few boats. Granted, not as quick in light airs but very comfortable when things liven up. Deeper forefoot, low aspect Scheel keel and skegged rudder unlike many modern boats.

Each to their own, not a case of which is better but which we prefer.

In our case the boat had to earn a living as a charter boat, so had to be up and running from the word go. When we stopped chartering seriously considered selling and buying a 376. However of the half dozen I looked at only one was worth buying and that inevitably sold the day it came on the market (for £20k more than my Bavaria). Every time I came back and looked at my Bavaria and appreciated the lack of rusting mild steel tanks, messy bilges, shabby upholstery, leaking windows, peeling varnish on bulkheads, poor electrics and so on - mostly to do with 25 years plus of hard life and neglect. Add to that the asking prices were similar to, or greater than I would get for my boat plus the £15-20k to bring it up to the same standard. No contest. As to suitability, we actually chartered a Moody 37 and a Bavaria before buying. Again no contest. In the Ionian (at least) where backing up to a quay is an everday activity, the Bavaria is far superior, both for control and access. Great cockpit for entertaining and swimming from. Sleeping cabins not quite as good as the Moody, but for two people plenty of space. Forecabin much bigger and one aft cabin used for storage.

In my view the perception of higher build quality is just that. After 12 years (of which 7 were full time chartering) there is little wrong with my boat, and the bits that have failed over the years are exactly the same bits as fitted to premiumj boats (still hurting from over £1k to replace a Lofrans windlass, never mind the £3k for a Volvo Saildrive). No problems with the "Bavaria" bits except one leaking water tank. Keel and rudder still there, and you could eat your dinner out of the bilges.

 

[BoyBlue49]

Well Ben9000, you will find that one contributing to the YBW forum needs a certain amount of humor as you have found. I can say that Little Roundtop has no malice but can be quite acidic in some of his replies especially if he sees a chink in your armour.

As to your o/p the advise you have received so far is top notch and should be taken to heart. I can only concur entirely with Tanona, the boat he sails is one of the most suitable for your needs, I can vouch personally for the Bavaria brand. The 42 Bavaria could give you what you require, there are several good examples from 2005 onwards.

Do sail as many makes and types of yacht as possible, it's the only way to find one that suits you. If you have not already, take the RYA shore based Day Skipper course, it will give you some useful skills for passage making.
At least you have plenty of lead time but maybe I think you may just change your mind in the mean time.

 

[chinita]

I have a suggestion which you will probably not like.

Get you and your wife on a short dinghy sailing course.

Ugh! You think, wet and uncomfortable and I would feel such a numpty.

However, when it all seems to be going tits up on your motor sailer you will have learned, instinctively, to smell what the wind is doing.

I would recommend this to ALL those considering cruising under sail, of all ages. You, in your thirties, would benefit greatly IMO.

 

[TQA]

Motor sailers vary from types like the Beneteau Evasion which tends towards the sail end. CLICKY

to the Shucker CLICKY which is firmly at the motor end.

A Beneteau Evasion is quite capable of circumnavigating under sail on the milk run route. I doubt if any Schucker has done it. In fact the Schucker will fail many of the tests that people use to assess if a boat is 'BLUE WATER CAPABLE.'

BUT the Schucker will outperfom the Bene by a large margin when in a marina or in a flat water anchorage. There is one caveat - many boats like the Shucker ROLL LIKE PIGS if there is a little bit of a swell running. Something that would be OK on the Bene producing a little roll will see the Shucker rolling badly. Flopperstoppers can help but there is little doubt they move more in some sorts of swell.

Personally I like the way a boat feels under sail and would hate to lose that.

BTW the Schucker looks very well looked after and the Cummins is a good engine to have however I would still have the Bene.

 

[maxi77]

I am curious as to why you think so. A motorsailers deckhouse will open all windows and doors allowing fresh air to blow through, at the same time sporting a boom tent/cover just like a yacht or motorboat would do. If you stop the sun hitting the top of the accommodation, this is half the battle. If like a mobo or motorsailer you can open more ports than a yacht, you will stay cooler.

I quite like the thought of a Motorsailer for the Ionian, there is either plenty wind, or non, so you have the engine donk donking when you want, then if the wind direction suits, put the sails up. I think as long as you look upon it as a displacement mobo, with sail assistance, you would be ok.
I would not go back to a full sailing yacht now, but would consider a Watson, or Fisher, 30ft ish.

Just how many opening windowa are there the few I looked at had limited ventillation and certainly like a cockpit tent cannot be removed. Just think of a windless day when it is 40 in the shade, it is not going to be nice, most of the mobo user we met used their open cocpits with bimini type sunshades rather than staying inside with the windows open

 

[curlysue]

We own a Nauticat 33 that we have cruised from UK to Greece. We have experienced the intense heat of greek summers and have never thought that our boat was ill designed for the job. With the side wheelhouse doors open there is an excellent flow of air through the tardis like accomodation. Our bimini which was custom made in Corfu stayed up all year barring the very odd occasion similar to all the other boats out there. Yes they roll, no, they do not sail well upwind or in light breezes but we never looked around with envy at other boats. We have lots of friends in greece who have beautiful boats ( bavaria, moody, Amel etc etc ) and they all enjoy them and we enjoyed joining them on them. As stated previous, every boat is a compromise, but Nauticats in the Ionian stand the heat issue very well indeed. Take it from someone who knows, not just thinks they know.
Stand by for incoming sarcastic comments.........

 

[causeway]

to the Shucker CLICKY which is firmly at the motor end.

I read Shucker as Shudder

 

[gavin_lacey]

Has the OP been on any modern privatly owned boats. His disgust with the toilet facities seems odd. One piece moulded toilet/shower compartments are easier to keep clean than most domestic bathrooms. Some sailing schools use older boats with compartments that are both cramped and hard to clean but others use modern boats with interiors that are designed to appeal to fastidious reasonably well off people who are likely to be purchasers of new boats.

 

[JamesFrance]

The boat in my avatar was our boat during the years 74 to 80.

36ft with a long keel and could keep up with pure sailing yachts under sail or motor all day at 7 knots. We loved the deck saloon in harbour too.

A Cavalier built by Moody before they started marketing production boats built by other firms.

 

[bazobeleza]

I've spent my life sailing, starting of with a kayak on the canal as kid, through sailing dinghies, to a half tonner racing around the irish sea. I now have a Nauticat motorsailer, I've had her for ten years, the best decision I ever made, she's roomy, the size of a small house in fact, she motors at 10-12 knots so bugger this sailing to windward malarky, when the winds favourable she'll bat along at 8 knots, she doesnt roll, and here in Faro with the sliding roof back and the doors open the wheelhouse is a lot cooler and a huggin more spacious than Grahams Moody cockpit. Then theres always the vast aft deck for outdoor drinkies.

I've sailed regularly in my mates bendytoy and though its nice, and its fast its also cramped and wet. the motion no where near as relaxed and smooth as my full keel.

Give me a motorsailer anytime, I'm sat here in the wheelhouse as I type this, cool and comfortable as I look out at the faro shoreline from the anchorage.

 

[chinita]

Motors at 10-12 knots - really?

That is some motorsailer. I had a 46ft pilothouse yacht with a 158hp engine and a 23 inch prop. I don't think i ever achieved more than 8 knots.

 

[bazobeleza]

Motors at 10-12 knots - really?

That is some motorsailer. I had a 46ft pilothouse yacht with a 158hp engine and a 23 inch prop. I don't think i ever achieved more than 8 knots.

Yup, at 2800 rpm ford lehman 140hp in a flat sea with a clean bottom, Nauticat themselves give fuel consumption figs up to 13knots, never done that though.

Optimum fuel v speed for Beleza seems to be 9.5 knots. When I brought her down to portugal non stop, liverpool to Lagos, she motorsailed most of the time and we averaged a tad over 9 knots logging 1350 mls in six days used slightly over a Gallon an hour when the motor was on and used under a quart of oil. Beleza has a 22 inch three bladed prop.

She's a heavy boat but seems very slippy through the water, the transom stern helps. Also she's schooner rigged so rubbish to windward but a real witch with anything on or abaft the beam.

I love that boat to bits. Say what you like about motor sailors, carpet slipper sailing, old mans boat etc etc. I know when the going gets rough I reef down, shut the doors, turn on the wipers and put the kettle on. My wellies have gone moldy with lack of use, my oilys only get used when going ashore in the dink.

I've done the rough stuff, now I want comfort.