Opinions on boat types? Thinking of a motor sailer...

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Ben9000

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Dear all,

As you can see I'm newish to the forum, but I've been doing plenty of reading and sailing since I joined. My wife and I are in our early thirties and are making plans to retire three years in January to follow our dream of living aboard in warm climates.

So far, we've had several afternoon's of sailing, a 24 hour passage, a 36 hour passage and a competent crew course near Gibraltar. More courses and actual sailing to follow in the next three years.

This is what we have learned so far:

1) Sailing yachts are uncomfortable. There are limited seating options for passengers, with no back support, on hard surfaces. If it's not raining you can have a cushion though! Of course, you can go below, but then you'll miss the whole point of sailing.

2) Toilet and shower facilities aboard are ... well, you know. Don't pretend you don't!

3) Marina's look nice on postcards. But they are noisy - not just other boats, but local bars and tourists help too. And marina facilities? Personally, I'm not that keen on seeing men's wrinkled genitalia before breakfast. Also, queuing up to take is dump is for Glastonbury.

4) There is limited shelter on deck. Sun, spray or rain slowly saps your stamina over time. I'm told the bimini is only for light airs.

I can and will put up with a lot - if sailing with male friends for example - but in the interests of marital harmony and a prolonged sailing career, the above issues need to be addressed if at all possible.

This is what has led me to looking at motor sailers, a Colvic Watson 40ft to give an example. A pilot house would seem to give adequate comfort and shelter on deck. On larger motor sailers like the one mentioned, these also double as the saloon. This would allow me to rearrange the layout below decks to accommodate a realistic toilet/shower/kitchen facilities, with a double cabin fore and aft.

I've heard a few negative points about motor sailers though. People see them as ugly, but I would dismiss that as irrelevant if I can at least counter some of the issues mentioned. Of course, when I see a pretty boat I'll be jealous - but that's life.

I've also read that they are dogs in light airs, but to counter this they are rated well by some in wilder seas with stronger winds. We plan to live on the hook as much as possible, but crucially to actually sail and use the engine as infrequently as possible - is this realistic?

I'd be interested in anyone's opinions relating to what I've written - are there any other boats you would recommend? I've seen pure sailing yachts that meet our requirements, but not our budget!

tl;dr - What are motor sailers like, and do any other boats up to 40ft compare for comfort?

Thanks in advance,
Ben
 
Last edited:
Thanks Robih. I reckon I'm about 18 months off purchasing anything though. We can't leave for at least three years unfortunately. I'm also expecting it to take 18 months to get the boat up to standard, so I'll be looking for something a bit tired that I can take apart and put back together again.
 
Not sure what sailing boats you have sailed on or looked at but some of your negative comments don't apply to many makes and other comments also apply to motor sailers. Quite how a motor sailor would avoid the marina dislikes, I don't understand. I think your judgment has been clouded by "pack em in" sailing school boats.

As far as motor sailers are concerned, some roll like pigs, sail badly and are expensive and noisy to run so, don't judge them all as good. An enclosed pilothouse in rough seas is also a good environment for seasickness and some can be incredibly hot away from UK waters.

Using a bimini in light airs only? Ours stays up throughout the season and the cockpit tent is added in cooler weather or, on the odd occasion it rains.

I think you need to look at far more boats of all types as get some more sailing experience under your belt before making any decision. At a very rough guess, I would say that motor sailors are outnumbered by a thousand or two to one by sailing boats by liveaboards - they can't all be wrong.
 
Just a few observations.

Depending on where you cruise, the amount of time spent underway is tiny as a proportion of overall time, so you will find in the med at least the drawbacks of an open cockpit sailing boat are much less than you imagine. A well designed bimini should be perfectly usable in sub gale conditionss under sail or motor.

If you are in hot climates you will live most of your time out of doors, anchored up in a nice calm bay or tied up on a quay/marina. A boat such as the Colvic is designed for bashing around the rough north sea in the cold and wet - the very opposite of the conditions you encounter in warmer cruising areas - which is why you rarely see them.

However, having said all that your requirements are not difficult to meet once you recognise that you need size to accommodate all you want - dificult in anything less than 36ft or so. Once you get above that there is a huge choice of boats and you choose the balance of features that suits you. Boats with the balance towards motor and internal accommodation are built, but in general not in large numbers because the demand is limited, usually by cost and not meeting the majority needs in terms of performance under sail. Very few people buy new boats specifically to liveaboard, so you are looking for other peoples castoffs.

For some time the popular compromise was centre cockpit boats such as Moodys and Westerlys as they offer a blend of accommodation and seaworthiness that means they are a good compromise for many cruising situations. However, these boats are now old and the style has moved out of favour as world demand has shifted to markets that prefer more open, lighter, higher performance boats, or where the emphasis is on simple accommodation for lage numbers.

If you have the budget then boats like the suggested Nauticat and various other semicustom deck saloon cruisers are a good choice. However they are hugely expensive and by their nature rarely come on the market in a rundown state (ie cheap). Few of this style work well under 40ft, therefore they tend to be complex and costly to run.

There are many other factors that influence choice - for example draft becomes an issue if you want to do the canals. If your plans involve long distance bluewater sailing, heavy weather capability and comfort at sea perhaps take priority over showers, kitchens and bedrooms. Catamarans are becoming more popular because of the space and stability they offer, but again you need a substantial budget to get one of the modern types.

If your plans are to tour the main parts of the Med (arguably the most popular activity) then do a bit of bareboating. Two or three two week charters in different places will give you a much better idea of what it is like to LIVE on a boat in hot climates and what is involved in making passages from (usually) island to island.

You will then be in a much better position to know what you like and don't like to help you choose your boat. Remember most people who elect to do what you plan have years of experience before they get to the point of committing to liveaboard, so usually have a pretty good idea of what they want. You should aim to get some focused experience, particularly if you plan to invest time and money in buying an older boat and fitting it out - indeed you may find the alternative approach of buying a boat already in the area you want to cruise a more effective way of achieving your goals.
 
Hmmm...let's pretend you were going onto a sports car owners forum, asking for advice.

"Hi I'm new to driving but am thinking of buying a car and touring down to the South of France. I know you guys love your sports cars so this is the right place for my questions.

I've had a few goes in a car and here are my observations

1) Convertibles look really silly and hard tops make their drivers look like numpties

2) The steering wheels in sports cars are too small and smell of poo - come on you know what I mean

3) Two seaters are so tiring to drive - I mean I know the cloth roofs can't be used above 30 miles an hour

So, I'm thinking of buying a Hummer for me and the family - would really appreciate your advice on which model to get
 
Thanks Graham for your response. The "marina dislikes" was just an observation, and something we feel we would avoid if at all possible. Also, having adequate facilities on board would avoid awkward locker-room encounters.

Thinking about things, you are probably right about my judgement being affected by experiences - some uncomfortable passages and being told outright by the RYA instructor that we could not put the bimini up when out at sea, depiste it being 36 degrees. I'm seeing now that this is not the case, but I can only go on what I've been told thus far.

And I've also just realised your roughly right in you statistics for motor sailers V sailing boats. Must be something in that.
 
RupertW said:
Hmmm...let's pretend you were going onto a sports car owners forum, asking for advice.

"Hi I'm new to driving but am thinking of buying a car and touring down to the South of France. I know you guys love your sports cars so this is the right place for my questions.

I've had a few goes in a car and here are my observations

1) Convertibles look really silly and hard tops make their drivers look like numpties

2) The steering wheels in sports cars are too small and smell of poo - come on you know what I mean

3) Two seaters are so tiring to drive - I mean I know the cloth roofs can't be used above 30 miles an hour

So, I'm thinking of buying a Hummer for me and the family - would really appreciate your advice on which model to get
Click to expand...

This is a sub forum called "Liveaboard Link. Especially for those who live on their sail or motor boats". Silly Rupert.
 
It is tempting to revert to sarcasm but I will try to be objective as you are seriously asking for advice. You don't seem to enjoy sailing for it's own sake and seem to want to maximise livaboard creature comforts. Nothing wrong with that but motor sailors, like all boats are a compromise. you won't find many that perform well under sail but comfortable passage making will be possible and performance is not really important in this context. What you will find is that you have the ability to sail when winds are favourable and can motor when they are not. Be aware that most tend to roll a bit at anchor due to their spacious round bilge form but this depends on how often you intend to anchor. The ultimate in creature comfort in a monohull comes at a price. Then again have you considered a catamaran? Very comfy by and large, both at sea and at anchor but if you want to include canals in your travels, probably not. You should also consider if you really want a sailboat at all. I have just converted from a cat to an Aquastar Mobo and intend to livaboard that in comfort with self contained facilities including watermaker, aircon etc. The cost of fuel is a big factor though and this has to be taken into account. First though decide what sort of cruising you want to do. If you want to cross oceans I have a weakness for cats. Pottering down canals and ending up in Greece a Mobo is my choice... Unfortunately there is no such thing as an all purpose perfect boat......
 
Ben9000 said:
This is a sub forum called "Liveaboard Link. Especially for those who live on their sail or motor boats". Silly Rupert.
Click to expand...

And you don't understand why your post may have got some people's backs up when you start by insulting their pride and joys? This is a lovely sub-forum and my post may have been a bit Lounge, but peoples boats really matter to them - of all types.
 
Tranona said:
Just a few observations.

Depending on where you cruise, the amount of time spent underway is tiny as a proportion of overall time, so you will find in the med at least the drawbacks of an open cockpit sailing boat are much less than you imagine. A well designed bimini should be perfectly usable in sub gale conditionss under sail or motor.

If you are in hot climates you will live most of your time out of doors, anchored up in a nice calm bay or tied up on a quay/marina. A boat such as the Colvic is designed for bashing around the rough north sea in the cold and wet - the very opposite of the conditions you encounter in warmer cruising areas - which is why you rarely see them.

However, having said all that your requirements are not difficult to meet once you recognise that you need size to accommodate all you want - dificult in anything less than 36ft or so. Once you get above that there is a huge choice of boats and you choose the balance of features that suits you. Boats with the balance towards motor and internal accommodation are built, but in general not in large numbers because the demand is limited, usually by cost and not meeting the majority needs in terms of performance under sail. Very few people buy new boats specifically to liveaboard, so you are looking for other peoples castoffs.

For some time the popular compromise was centre cockpit boats such as Moodys and Westerlys as they offer a blend of accommodation and seaworthiness that means they are a good compromise for many cruising situations. However, these boats are now old and the style has moved out of favour as world demand has shifted to markets that prefer more open, lighter, higher performance boats, or where the emphasis is on simple accommodation for lage numbers.

If you have the budget then boats like the suggested Nauticat and various other semicustom deck saloon cruisers are a good choice. However they are hugely expensive and by their nature rarely come on the market in a rundown state (ie cheap). Few of this style work well under 40ft, therefore they tend to be complex and costly to run.

There are many other factors that influence choice - for example draft becomes an issue if you want to do the canals. If your plans involve long distance bluewater sailing, heavy weather capability and comfort at sea perhaps take priority over showers, kitchens and bedrooms. Catamarans are becoming more popular because of the space and stability they offer, but again you need a substantial budget to get one of the modern types.

If your plans are to tour the main parts of the Med (arguably the most popular activity) then do a bit of bareboating. Two or three two week charters in different places will give you a much better idea of what it is like to LIVE on a boat in hot climates and what is involved in making passages from (usually) island to island.

You will then be in a much better position to know what you like and don't like to help you choose your boat. Remember most people who elect to do what you plan have years of experience before they get to the point of committing to liveaboard, so usually have a pretty good idea of what they want. You should aim to get some focused experience, particularly if you plan to invest time and money in buying an older boat and fitting it out - indeed you may find the alternative approach of buying a boat already in the area you want to cruise a more effective way of achieving your goals.
Click to expand...

Many thanks Tranona, this is exactly the kind of advice I'm looking for. I think sometimes people don't understand that if you come late to sailing, it's like learning a new language, and there's so much information out there you can't see the wood for the trees.

We hope to start bareboating at the end of next summer, when day skipper is completed and we have the ICC, so I know that will help greatly to shape our opinions of what we do and do not like.
 
RupertW said:
And you don't understand why your post may have got some people's backs up when you start by insulting their pride and joys? This is a lovely sub-forum and my post may have been a bit Lounge, but peoples boats really matter to them - of all types.
Click to expand...

I'm not here insulting anyone's anything - I'm simply saying what my limited experience has been on the two different silaing yachts I've been on, and how that does not translate well for me into living long-term.

Re-read the post if you need to, but I'm not telling anyone about their boating experience, I'm telling them about mine.
 
The Southampton Boat Show will be on in September and an excellent side-line are the used boat shows at Hamble Point and other local marinas. Suggest you spend a day looking at the expensive "liveaboard suitable" new boats at the show and then have a couple of days looking at 36ft+ used Halberg Rassey, Malo, Najad, Moody, Westerly etc at the other shows. Remember that over 12m, marina prices start to jump in price.

Some of the older boats may well need work to update them but many make far better liveaboards and shorthanded passagemakers than some of the more modern lighter faster boats.
 
boatmike said:
It is tempting to revert to sarcasm but I will try to be objective as you are seriously asking for advice. You don't seem to enjoy sailing for it's own sake and seem to want to maximise livaboard creature comforts. Nothing wrong with that but motor sailors, like all boats are a compromise. you won't find many that perform well under sail but comfortable passage making will be possible and performance is not really important in this context. What you will find is that you have the ability to sail when winds are favourable and can motor when they are not. Be aware that most tend to roll a bit at anchor due to their spacious round bilge form but this depends on how often you intend to anchor. The ultimate in creature comfort in a monohull comes at a price. Then again have you considered a catamaran? Very comfy by and large, both at sea and at anchor but if you want to include canals in your travels, probably not. You should also consider if you really want a sailboat at all. I have just converted from a cat to an Aquastar Mobo and intend to livaboard that in comfort with self contained facilities including watermaker, aircon etc. The cost of fuel is a big factor though and this has to be taken into account. First though decide what sort of cruising you want to do. If you want to cross oceans I have a weakness for cats. Pottering down canals and ending up in Greece a Mobo is my choice... Unfortunately there is no such thing as an all purpose perfect boat......
Click to expand...

thanks boatmike, I do enjoy sailing but as already mentioned by another my experience has perhaps been clouded a bit by the neccessary RYA stuff and a few uncomfortable moments. I guess what I'm really trying to do is preempt any moves by SWMBO in the future to tire of things and long for "proper house" - there'll be no need if I've thought of everything! Obviously this is a bit naive, but you can appreciate a lot of thought needs to go into making this kind of change.
 
I am pretty certain that the motorsailor deckhouse would be murderous in the summer south of Ushant. We had a full cockpit tent on a centre cockpit which was an all weather structure and provided shelter inn the North Sea and shade down in Portugal for the rest of the time. We always had cushions out and even had a dogs bed under the sprayhood for our seadog. In the hottest weather we added a large sunshade which kept life pleasant. In the end the the boat will be what you make of it, and you really need to look at as many options as you can before you make up your mind. Our 36 footer had a very spacious aft cabin with and en-suite as well as a visitors heads forward. If you are looking at 40 footers there are plenty of good choices out there , just remember in the sun you need shade with no walls not a greenhouse. Marinas are marinas, some are noissy and have queques in the heads in the morning, but most are really pleasant, even some of the really big ones and are a good to stay in. What ever you were told by the instructor, your boat will be your boat, run it for you not some corinthian purist whom you met in the past. I even used to sail with my fenders out as some geriatric rebelion against 2 years of fenders nazis at Naval College.
 
Just to add a little bit more. You will find that there are still many older style heavy displacement boats in use because that was the boat of choice 20 or 30 years ago, and many people see that style as a good choice. However, times have changed and few boats of that type are now made, so prefernces have now changed.

When we faced the choice 12 years from a background in traditional boats, the choice was a Moody type or a new, what is known as an AWB. We chose the latter, a Bavaria after trying them on bareboating, which made us realise how good they are at the job. Have not regretted it, and you will find many happy users of such boats. Still hanker after a Moody, but am always put off by the age and amount of work to get up to the same standard as my Bavaria - and the layout of the smaller (37 ish ones) is less suitable for Med living.

Hope this helps.
 
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