Old communications and Seatalkng

[feralfergal]

I am doing a bit of upgrade work for my father (also a forum member @Irish Rover) on his new boat. I have a few queries I'm hoping someone can help me with.

We have carried over an AİS unit which has only NMEA0183 communication - which I connected to a Ray60 on its 0183 cables - but this hasn't produced any AİS data on the Seatalkng network. İt might have been naive to think it would work that way, but is the Ray60 0183 input limited to GPS data only? Also, if I decide to put in the Seatalkng to 0183 converter, does this allow 0183 messages to be put on the Seatalkng network? Some of the info I have read suggests it can only work the other way around.

I have a similar issue with a remote control for the autopilot, it is Seatalk (1). But the p70 interface and the EV-1 (ACU 400) seem to only work with Seatalkng (I had expected the boat to have an i70 which has both). There exists a Seatalk to Seatalkng converter. Does anyone know if it might be possible to get one unit which allows both seatalk (1) and 0183 messages to be added to the Seatalkng network? Or do I need to buy two separate units?

Thanks very much in advance!

 

[PaulRainbow]

I am doing a bit of upgrade work for my father (also a forum member @Irish Rover) on his new boat. I have a few queries I'm hoping someone can help me with.

We have carried over an AİS unit which has only NMEA0183 communication - which I connected to a Ray60 on its 0183 cables - but this hasn't produced any AİS data on the Seatalkng network. İt might have been naive to think it would work that way, but is the Ray60 0183 input limited to GPS data only?

That won't work.

Also, if I decide to put in the Seatalkng to 0183 converter, does this allow 0183 messages to be put on the Seatalkng network? Some of the info I have read suggests it can only work the other way around.

I have a similar issue with a remote control for the autopilot, it is Seatalk (1). But the p70 interface and the EV-1 (ACU 400) seem to only work with Seatalkng (I had expected the boat to have an i70 which has both). There exists a Seatalk to Seatalkng converter. Does anyone know if it might be possible to get one unit which allows both seatalk (1) and 0183 messages to be added to the Seatalkng network? Or do I need to buy two separate units?

Thanks very much in advance!

Would be useful if you listed everything on the boat ?

 

[ylop]

The official Raymarine NG—>0183 interface is designed to be one way only (eg to feed from the NG network to a DSC radio). You need separate ST and 0183 bridges even though they appear visually similar.

Quark, Yachtdevices etc may have a gateway - i think I saw one of them with an AIS to NG for less than the cost of the adaptor!

 

[KompetentKrew]

There exists a Seatalk to Seatalkng converter. Does anyone know if it might be possible to get one unit which allows both seatalk (1) and 0183 messages to be added to the Seatalkng network? Or do I need to buy two separate units?

NMEA 0183 and SeaTalk1 are superficially similar, but they're incompatible.

They are both 70's / 80's style serial data protocols, which means basically two wires, plus maybe power and ground. Imagine you have a battery, 100m of wire and a 12v lightbulb - you can send messages in morse code to someone 100m away - that's more or less what serial data is, data is sent one letter at a time over the pair of wires. But computers can read data faster than humans can send or read morse, and the data speed here is probably a few hundred or thousand characters per minute.

Nav data is sent as "sentences" - a message like "POS,51.47,00.00" might indicate you're at Greenwich observatory (it's a position message) or "SPD,5.000,90" might be a speed message meaning you're traveling at 5m/s due east. (I have totally made up these examples, but hopefully you get the idea.)

Ignoring the wiring and voltages for the moment, NMEA 0183 devices talk NMEA 0183 and SeaTalk1 devices talk SeaTalk - the sentences are different and you would need a computer (or small embedded IC chip) in order to translate between them. There may well be some products on the market that do as you want.

SeaTalkNG / NMEA 2000 is more like a data network - multiple devices connect to the backbone and they can all send to and receive from it. SeaTalkNG and NMEA 2000 are the same, but with different connectors - you can connect SeaTalkNG devices to NMEA 2000 ones, and they talk the same sentences. But they're different sentences from SeaTalk1 or NMEA 0183, and the Raymarine SeaTalk1 to SeaTalkNG converter has a little embedded computer chip in it which reads the data coming in and then reformats it to send it out in the language of NMEA 2000.

When you're connecting SeaTalkNG or NMEA 2000 devices, the cable have to be connected in a certain way - you have to be respectful of the NMEA 2000 backbone topology. You can't treat the T's like they're carrying water - devices always connect to the middle leg, the arms always form part of the backbone. See the last paragraph of comment #3 and comment #7 of this recent thread.

 

[KompetentKrew]

But the p70 interface and the EV-1 (ACU 400) seem to only work with Seatalkng (I had expected the boat to have an i70 which has both).

Could this be a difference between the original P70 / i70 models and the newer P70S / i70S counterparts?

Looks like the i70 was released around 2011, and I'd guess the i70s around 2017 or 2018. They're obviously basically the same unit but with a facelift - the graphics and the menus are all the same, but the i70 has the rounded facia with silver edges whereas the i70s is squarer and all black.

I'm pretty sure the i70 has two SeaTalk connectors at the back and I think it can repeat to an adjacent i70 (I guess this uses SeaTalk1?). The i70s only has a single SeaTalkNG connector at the back, and it must always be part of a proper SeaTalkNG / NMEA 2000 network.

 

[feralfergal]

Thanks for all of the replies! I have done a bit of this before but I'm not an expert by any means. I work mainly with ethercat and a little with can networks at work. But I'm not an expert there either. I believe that the protocol for 2000 and Seatalkng is basically the same (can) but that there are proprietary connectors for Seatalkng.

The old boat had fewer devices and a mix of 0183 and 2000. We used the capacity of the plotter (a Garmin unit) and the vhf to take in the 0183 data (AİS and an analog-digital converter we installed for the engines) and put it on the 2000 network. That's why I was a little surprised that the Ray60 vhf, with 0183 and Seatalkng connections did not do the same.

The boat is equipped with plenty of sensors which are onto the Seatalkng network with various switches. The cockpit has a Ray60, a fusion audio system and also houses the ACU400 (Evolution EV-1) autopilot control unit. The fly bridge is equipped with a radio remote for the Ray60, an axiom7, an axiom9, a P70 (with only one Seatalkng) connector, all of which are connected to a Seatalkng switch. İt also has a yanmar VC interface (I'm not sure which version actually).

My confusion over the i70 and p70 came as the boat was advertised as having both, but only has a P70 (of some version which has a single Seatalkng connection). I should have known that would be a problem. I'm still surprised by the Ray60 however.

There are several switches throughout the system so adding in two converters will not be impossible. The main issue is ensuring I get a two-way converter which can handle 0183. (Or at least one which can flow data from 0183 to Seatalkng, as this is our priority, and the opposite of what the Raymarine product is designed for). Worst case scenario as I understand it I can get a 0183 to 2000 converter, and then adapt that to Seatalkng, or are there subtle differences in the protocol as well as the cabling?

Thanks again!

 

[PaulRainbow]

Thanks for all of the replies! I have done a bit of this before but I'm not an expert by any means. I work mainly with ethercat and a little with can networks at work. But I'm not an expert there either. I believe that the protocol for 2000 and Seatalkng is basically the same (can) but that there are proprietary connectors for Seatalkng.

The old boat had fewer devices and a mix of 0183 and 2000. We used the capacity of the plotter (a Garmin unit) and the vhf to take in the 0183 data (AİS and an analog-digital converter we installed for the engines) and put it on the 2000 network. That's why I was a little surprised that the Ray60 vhf, with 0183 and Seatalkng connections did not do the same.

The boat is equipped with plenty of sensors which are onto the Seatalkng network with various switches. The cockpit has a Ray60, a fusion audio system and also houses the ACU400 (Evolution EV-1) autopilot control unit. The fly bridge is equipped with a radio remote for the Ray60, an axiom7, an axiom9, a P70 (with only one Seatalkng) connector, all of which are connected to a Seatalkng switch. İt also has a yanmar VC interface (I'm not sure which version actually).

My confusion over the i70 and p70 came as the boat was advertised as having both, but only has a P70 (of some version which has a single Seatalkng connection). I should have known that would be a problem. I'm still surprised by the Ray60 however.

There are several switches throughout the system so adding in two converters will not be impossible. The main issue is ensuring I get a two-way converter which can handle 0183. (Or at least one which can flow data from 0183 to Seatalkng, as this is our priority, and the opposite of what the Raymarine product is designed for). Worst case scenario as I understand it I can get a 0183 to 2000 converter, and then adapt that to Seatalkng, or are there subtle differences in the protocol as well as the cabling?

Thanks again!

STNG and N2K use exactly the same protocols. All you would need is a N2K to STNG cable to connect a 0183 to N2K converter to the STNG network.

You could also use a STNG to N2k backbone converter cable to create a combined STNG to N2K backbone/network, then connect the 0183 converter to it with a standard N2K Tee connector. An advantage of doing this is that you can connect any other/future N2K devices using a standard Tee and a drop cable.

I would strongly advise against cheap and nasty 0183 converters, as they don't work well with lots of data to convert (in my experience).

 

[feralfergal]

STNG and N2K use exactly the same protocols. All you would need is a N2K to STNG cable to connect a 0183 to N2K converter to the STNG network.

You could also use a STNG to N2k backbone converter cable to create a combined STNG to N2K backbone/network, then connect the 0183 converter to it with a standard N2K Tee connector. An advantage of doing this is that you can connect any other/future N2K devices using a standard Tee and a drop cable.

I would strongly advise against cheap and nasty 0183 converters, as they don't work well with lots of data to convert (in my experience).

Thanks very much! Yes we had a real problem with a cheaper 0183 to 2k (and WiFi) converter on Irish Rover, it was creating so much electrical noise it was actually blocking the AİS transmission. Though the AİS unit is a bit cheap, it functions well, we will just follow the advice here to buy the required converters. N2K isn't alien to me, I just wasn't expecting the lack of an ST1 connector (due to boat listing being wrong) and for the Ray60 not to convert the AİS data and put it on the STng network.
Thanks again for all the helpful responses! I have other questions but that's all on the network side (for now).

 

[geem]

STNG and N2K use exactly the same protocols. All you would need is a N2K to STNG cable to connect a 0183 to N2K converter to the STNG network.

You could also use a STNG to N2k backbone converter cable to create a combined STNG to N2K backbone/network, then connect the 0183 converter to it with a standard N2K Tee connector. An advantage of doing this is that you can connect any other/future N2K devices using a standard Tee and a drop cable.

I would strongly advise against cheap and nasty 0183 converters, as they don't work well with lots of data to convert (in my experience).

We have a 0183 AIS transceiver that is interfaced onto the STNG network using an Actisense converter. Seems to work well.

 

[feralfergal]

We have a 0183 AIS transceiver that is interfaced onto the STNG network using an Actisense converter. Seems to work well.

Thanks! I'll try to update on it when we have it all sorted. I appreciate all the responses.