Old Boat and VAT

[Slowboater33]

Hi First Post here. I am looking at a mid 70's sailboat in Holland. It was pre VAT days. Now if l buy it and bring back to UK and I liable to pay VAT ?
It's currently German flagged so would have to reg it on ssr after it's dereg in Germany.
I may even keep it in Holland after a visit to UK.
Apologies for VAT questions yet again

 

[dunedin]

Are you a UK resident?
If so VAT needs to be paid if bring to the UK, even for a day. No age exemption, though VATable value presumably now lowish.
If bought in Holland will have EU VAT status, so can stay indefinitely in the EU without paying EU VAT.

 

[Momac]

a mid 70's sailboat in Holland. It was pre VAT days.

Was it pre-VAT? (not that its important).

 

[AngusMcDoon]

...and it will need to be tested for and pass the UKCA regulations as if it was a new build, which will almost certainly either be impossible to make it comply or uneconomic. It will probably require a new engine for a start. For an old low value boat it's not worth it. Don't even try. If you are a UK resident buy one here and take it there - there are still some rules, but it's much easier.

 

[jwilson]

Forget bringing it back to the UK. One of the side effects of Brexit has been to virtually completely stop the importation of used boats. You will have to pay VAT, and have it UKCA certified, which can be very difficult and expensive, particularly on older boats. Currently there is an UKCA import exemption for EU RCD certified boats, but this will run out in a few years. A 1970s boat is vanishingly unlikely to be RCD marked as the system did not come into use until the late 1990s.

VAT was actually introduced in France in 1954 and then spread to other countries, came into being in the UK in April 1972.

 

[Tranona]

Hi First Post here. I am looking at a mid 70's sailboat in Holland. It was pre VAT days. Now if l buy it and bring back to UK and I liable to pay VAT ?
It's currently German flagged so would have to reg it on ssr after it's dereg in Germany.
I may even keep it in Holland after a visit to UK.
Apologies for VAT questions yet again

Perhaps a little more explanation. VAT is a tax on transactions, and importing a boat into the UK is a VAT able transaction. The age of the boat and whether or not VAT has been paid in the past is irrelevant. On an old cheap boat the actual amount is likely to be small, but the killer will be getting an old boat certified.

If you are a UK resident you can own the boat in the EU and register it on the SSR and can move freely around the EU 9the boat that is) but you cannot bring it to the UK even for a day without importing it.

So, if you want a boat to use in the UK buy obe here, if you want to keep a boat permanently in the EU, buy one there.

 

[Slowboater33]

Are you a UK resident?
If so VAT needs to be paid if bring to the UK, even for a day. No age exemption, though VATable value presumably now lowish.
If bought in Holland will have EU VAT status, so can stay indefinitely in the EU without paying EU VAT.

Thx Dunedin, That's cleared that up nicely, so if l ssr reg it and it stays in Holland no issues on vat. That correct?

 

[Tranona]

Yes. see post#6

 

[ridgy]

Who is ever going to question the provence of such an old cheap boat? If it's cheap enough there are plenty of people who might just sail it down the channel, nip over from Calais, and it can takes its place with all the other cheap old boats in a harbour somewhere. If you weren't on this forum you wouldn't even know to think about vat or have heard of the RCD.

 

[dunedin]

Who is ever going to question the provence of such an old cheap boat? If it's cheap enough there are plenty of people who might just sail it down the channel, nip over from Calais, and it can takes its place with all the other cheap old boats in a harbour somewhere. If you weren't on this forum you wouldn't even know to think about vat or have heard of the RCD.

But to sail from.Holland (any EU country) to the UK you need to make a declaration - using an online version of C1331 form. And this asks about VAT so would need to be prepared to lie to HMRC. Perhaps unlikely to get caught but is tax fraud and severe penalties if caught out.
With the present political interest in migrant boats, I would imagine there may be more tracking of yachts crossing the Channel and southern North Sea so wouldnt bet on not being spotted crossing if not filled.in the C1331.

 

[benjenbav]

It may be worth mentioning that the RCD contains some exclusions, one of which that might possibly be relevant to the OP being for boats that were built by their owners and used as such for at least five years.

 

[st599]

It may be worth mentioning that the RCD contains some exclusions, one of which that might possibly be relevant to the OP being for boats that were built by their owners and used as such for at least five years.

Is the problem not that an import has to match UKCA on the date of import, not RCD from X years ago.

 

[doug748]

Forget bringing it back to the UK. One of the side effects of Brexit has been to virtually completely stop the importation of used boats. You will have to pay VAT, and have it UKCA certified, which can be very difficult and expensive, particularly on older boats. Currently there is an UKCA import exemption for EU RCD certified boats, but this will run out in a few years. A 1970s boat is vanishingly unlikely to be RCD marked as the system did not come into use until the late 1990s.

VAT was actually introduced in France in 1954 and then spread to other countries, came into being in the UK in April 1972.

VAT is about as loony as a window tax, nice to know where it came from.

I wonder if anyone has tested the UKCA certification trap? Is it there for window dressing or just another unconsidered trifle by our masters? It's almost worth trying to import a cheap boat and seeing just what happens. I suspect, after fronting up with the VAT dosh, absolutely nothing.
It's difficult to figure out why it even exists, unlike VAT it's not a money spinner, helps nobody and only inconveniences a handful of people who are disproportionately affected.
I'd say It is certainly one long term anomaly that would be the proper work of the RYA to iron out.

.

 

[benjenbav]

Is the problem not that an import has to match UKCA on the date of import, not RCD from X years ago.

There are various exclusions set out in the legislation to which the regulations for certification don’t apply at all, one of which being the self-build item mentioned.

A further possibility might open up if the Windsor Framework is passed into law, inasmuch as it might then be possible for a UK resident to import a CE boat into NI and thence to GB relying on the CE marking without having to certify under UKCA regs. I haven’t even tried to look at the detail on this and it may well be a fanciful thought of relevance (even if possible) only to a vanishingly small number of boaters.

 

[benjenbav]

There are various exclusions set out in the legislation to which the regulations for certification don’t apply at all, one of which being the self-build item mentioned.

A further possibility might open up if the Windsor Framework is passed into law, inasmuch as it might then be possible for a UK resident to import a CE boat into NI and thence to GB relying on the CE marking without having to certify under UKCA regs. I haven’t even tried to look at the detail on this and it may well be a fanciful thought of relevance (even if possible) only to a vanishingly small number of boaters.

Actually, this is what the Guidance currently states - pre Windsor:


“11. Qualifying Northern Ireland Goods
The government committed to providing unfettered access for qualifying Northern Ireland goods to the rest of the UK market after 1 January 2021. Recreational craft and personal watercraft that can be placed on the market in Northern Ireland in accordance with the legislation, as it applies to Northern Ireland, can be sold in the rest of the UK without any additional approvals.

This means that products that are qualifying Northern Ireland goods can be sold in the rest of the UK if any of the following apply:

• the CE marking is lawfully applied to the good on the basis of self-declaration
• any mandatory third-party conformity assessment was carried out by an EU-recognised notified body (including a body in a country with which the EU has a relevant mutual recognition agreement) and a CE marking is affixed
• the certificate of conformity previously held by a UK approved body has been transferred to an EU-recognised notified body and a CE marking has been affixed
• any mandatory third-party conformity assessment was carried out by a UK-based body, and the good is therefore marked with the CE marking and with the new UKNI marking

This will be the case even if there are changes between the EU rules that the Northern Ireland Protocol applies to NI and the GB rules.”

 

[AngusMcDoon]

There are various exclusions set out in the legislation to which the regulations for certification don’t apply at all, one of which being the self-build item mentioned.

Exclusions apply if you self-build a boat within a customs area and then use it in that customs area. Whether self built or professionally built on moving between customs area is irrelevant and its history doesn't matter. It's counted as a new import and has to meet the certification standards the same as any other boat. The EU and the UK are now different customs areas with different rules. This issue has been the reason why importing cheap boats from the USA into the EU or UK has been uneconomic for a long time.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

It's difficult to figure out why it even exists, unlike VAT it's not a money spinner, helps nobody and only inconveniences a handful of people who are disproportionately affected.

Because every customs area in the world has rules and regulations on what can be imported and sold in that area. Neither the UK or its application of rules to leisure craft are unique in these rules. How many rules do you think there are applying to the sale of cars, or electronic devices, or food, or aviation equipment, or medecines? Answer: a lot. And they help everybody.

 

[benjenbav]

Exclusions apply if you self-build a boat within a customs area and then use it in that customs area. Whether self built or professionally built on moving between customs area is irrelevant and its history doesn't matter. It's counted as a new import and has to meet the certification standards the same as any other boat. The EU and the UK are now different customs areas with different rules. This issue has been the reason why importing cheap boats from the USA into the EU or UK has been uneconomic for a long time.

Ah, thanks. Didn’t appreciate that on my quick skim of the regs.

 

[benjenbav]

Is the problem not that an import has to match UKCA on the date of import, not RCD from X years ago.

Yes. Ignore my previous - except the NI stuff, which is - of course - pure gold.

 

[Mister E]

So you sail an EU registered boat to Ireland, then move on to North Ireland.
Then sail to the UK mainland at your leisure.