ODM

[Kerenza]

Apologies for not knowing the rules and asking a question.

Imagine a start line which is a transit of two marks on the shore, (a mark on a building and a flagstaff) bounded by a fixed ODM bouy which lies on course side of that transit by as much as a couple of boat lengths due to the tide.

After crossing the line, is there any reason you must pass inside the ODM? Not mentioned in the Si. Finish line will be from the mark to the ODM, so it remains a mark of the course I think.

Quite likely to be of importance this weekend.

 

[RobbieW]

Not a rules based suggestion but passing between the line and the buoy on the uptide side carries the risk of taking the buoy along with you. That would make a bad start to the day

 

[Kerenza]

I'm anticipating a wind at 45deg to the start line.

 

[flaming]

Apologies for not knowing the rules and asking a question.

Imagine a start line which is a transit of two marks on the shore, (a mark on a building and a flagstaff) bounded by a fixed ODM bouy which lies on course side of that transit by as much as a couple of boat lengths due to the tide.

After crossing the line, is there any reason you must pass inside the ODM? Not mentioned in the Si. Finish line will be from the mark to the ODM, so it remains a mark of the course I think.

Quite likely to be of importance this weekend.

In short yes. The ODM is a mark of the course and must be left on the correct side.

 

[awol]

My understanding is that if the ODM is on the course side of the line then it is a mark on the course. If it is on the prestart side of the line it can be ignored and the line length is limited only by the next bit of land - passing it on the correct hand sometime in the start sequence might be a good idea.

 

[lw395]

Generally, it's just the requirement to sail the course between 'starting' and 'finishing'.
A distance mark on the course side has a required side like any other mark. It should be defined in the SIs.
In the old days, if the distance mark could be left to the required side before touching the line, i.e. it's more than a boat's width on the pre-start side of the line, then the RO might live to regret this.
Sometimes there was complex wording in the SIs to prevent people ignoring or subverting the distance marks.
These days, the requirement to leave marks to the correct side begins as you approach the line to start.

A boat shall start, sail the course described in the sailing instructions
and finish. While doing so, she may leave on either side a mark that
does not begin, bound or end the leg she is sailing. After finishing
she need not cross the finishing line completely.
28.2 A string representing a boat’s track from the time she begins to
approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start until she
finishes shall, when drawn taut,
(a) pass each mark on the required side and in the correct order,
(b) touch each rounding mark, and
(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the
previous mark.
She may correct any errors to comply with this rule, provided she has
not finished.

 

[Kerenza]

A boat shall start, sail the course described in the sailing instructions
and finish. While doing so, she may leave on either side a mark that
does not begin, bound or end the leg she is sailing.
Thought I under stood, but now we have a mark which ceases to be relevant once we have started, remember we may be two lengths over the line before reaching the odm.
The odm is a start mark so just as the rules differentiate up to the point of starting surely at thee moment of starting the rules change?

 

[Kerenza]

Ah just thought, it will be relevant mark on the return. Difficult thinking on the way into Welsh match

 

[lw395]

A boat shall start, sail the course described in the sailing instructions
and finish. While doing so, she may leave on either side a mark that
does not begin, bound or end the leg she is sailing.
Thought I under stood, but now we have a mark which ceases to be relevant once we have started, remember we may be two lengths over the line before reaching the odm.
The odm is a start mark so just as the rules differentiate up to the point of starting surely at thee moment of starting the rules change?

What do the SIs actually say about this mark?
The term 'outer distance mark' AFAIK does not appear in the rules.
If the SIs require passing the mark to one side, it's a mark like any other.
If it's listed as part of the start line malarkey in the SIs, then I'd assume it ranks as a 'starting mark' there fore must not be touched before starting, and there's no mark room to be had.

 

[awol]

What do the SIs actually say about this mark?
The term 'outer distance mark' AFAIK does not appear in the rules.
If the SIs require passing the mark to one side, it's a mark like any other.
If it's listed as part of the start line malarkey in the SIs, then I'd assume it ranks as a 'starting mark' there fore must not be touched before starting, and there's no mark room to be had.

Using that logic once the boat has started it can bounce of the ODM with impunity.
"Start
A boat starts when, having been entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal, and having complied with rule 30.1
if it applies, any part of her hull, crew or equipment crosses the starting line
in the direction of the first mark."

 

[Kerenza]

Yes, this is why I asked opinions. Only mentioned in si in context of start / finish. In fact finish line is likely to be in the opposite direction, so first boats will see it on or near the line, later boats it will be course side.
In this instance, giving away my possible start strategy, I was considering reaching starboard tack up the line then hardening up.

 

[lw395]

Using that logic once the boat has started it can bounce of the ODM with impunity.
"Start
A boat starts when, having been entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal, and having complied with rule 30.1
if it applies, any part of her hull, crew or equipment crosses the starting line
in the direction of the first mark."

A start mark still mustn't be touched after starting, as it begins or bounds the leg you are on, like any other mark.
R31 TOUCHING A MARK
While racing, a boat shall not touch a starting mark before starting, a
mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course on which she
is sailing, or a finishing mark after finishing

So you can touch the ODM once you've finished the first leg, e.g. on a w/l course, the start gate might not be a mark on the run.

 

[Muddy32]

How is the starting outer distance mark defined?

If it is mentioned in the SIs as part of the starting line, it is simple.

Case 58 sorts the problem in the finish situation.

RYA2002/4 also applies.

 

[Kerenza]

si only mention odm as a limit to the length of the line. it isnt part of the startline as it is always off the transit.
i dont think the rules are designed to cope with inadequate si.

Another si issue from now on will be finishing in the dark. Without a mention in the si, I assume rrs will continue to apply.

 

[lw395]

si only mention odm as a limit to the length of the line. it isnt part of the startline as it is always off the transit.
i dont think the rules are designed to cope with inadequate si.

Another si issue from now on will be finishing in the dark. Without a mention in the si, I assume rrs will continue to apply.

AIUI, the RRS continue to apply after dark, unless the SI's state a time (e.g. 'sunset') when IRCPS take over.
Badly worded SIs are a pain.
If the intent of the ODM is clear though, probably best to just get on with it, unless other boats are causing a problem?

 

[Kerenza]

my thoughts were much the same, but in this case I think it may be almost impossible for a number of boats to cross the line together on starboard and avoid the odm, which of course by then will be the end of the finish line.
if everyone starts on port its likely to be busy that end and not at all pretty. Some of the shallower boats may be able to port start inshore then lay the probable first mark in one.

 

[lw395]

That's an interesting one!
If that mark ranks as a starting mark, then there is no mark room to be had.
The first boats to cross the line will be able to tack onto STBD and force others past the mark.
Depending on the exact wind and current when the gun goes, could you cross the line on STBD?

If it's a P flag start, then coming in fast from the course side on STBD is a possible tactic. High risk if there are many boats which are simply likely to fail to get out of the way.
I think I'd just start on Port and accept I wouldn't be right at the favoured end, as a fair price to pay for avoiding the melee.

If I was RO, I'd consider a downwind start.

I am duly grateful for our committee boat start today.

 

[dunedin]

my thoughts were much the same, but in this case I think it may be almost impossible for a number of boats to cross the line together on starboard and avoid the odm, which of course by then will be the end of the finish line.
if everyone starts on port its likely to be busy that end and not at all pretty. Some of the shallower boats may be able to port start inshore then lay the probable first mark in one.View attachment 74049

There are no depths shown on your little chartlet. But for deep keel boats racing I would have thought the OOD and sailing instructions should be thinking more about an Inner Distance Mark to avoid boats being damaged by being pushed into shallow water, with any Outer Distance Mark much further out (if needed at all).

 

[Birdseye]

From a purely practical point of view I do not think that Kerenzas proposed approach would survive more than one race. Unless his boat is seen to pass between the ODM and the race officer who is on shore, then the race officer has no way of knowing whether the boat crossed the start line at a distance from the shore that was within the ODM distance or much further out. The chart that Kerenza has posted shows the issue - the race officer is on a yacht club balcony roughly where the white box is on the chart.

I often do race officer duties, and in this situation I would record Kerenza as having failed to cross the start line correctly. I would have no alternative. The result would be some sort of protest scenario that would have the likes of lw395 wetting himself with excitement.