Obtuse vendor or pendantic purchaser?

[CharlesM]

Hello All

I am in the process of purchasing a boat. An offer has been accepted, but it seems to me the owners are being obtuse. I mentioned I was about to do some morgage checks, and asked for information about the previous owners (so I could check on them), and for the SSR number of the vessel. The owners response (after about 4 weeks of silence) is...

"We are not prepared to divulge any previous owners
names or our SSR number at this point. We are very
confident there are no outstanding mortgages on
<<boatname>> and we certainly owe no money on her.
We put most of our extra savings into <<boatname>>, and
know that a new car could cost more than we are asking
for our home. "

Am I asking too much? I am spending just under 40K (once VAT is included) on the boat. - effectively my life's savings- The boat is very neat, and I think I would enjoy her, but this really is bothering me. Are they simply respecting the privacy of the previous owners?

What am I to do? I assumed the owners wish to sell, and the vessel has been up for sale for more than a year.

Any constructive advice would be appreciated.

Regards
Charles

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[oldgit]

My first guess is he does not want you to know how much he paid for the boat. My last purchase came with a thick wad of paper work listing all the previous owners and more interestingly how much they each paid in turn .May be he bought the boat for a song and is afraid you will try to beat him down on the price.

<hr width=100% size=1>If it aint broke fix it till it is.

 

[snowleopard]

i take it you are buying privately? a broker would certainly do those checks and a prudent car buyer would get an HPI check. i would either make the offer subject to satisfactory proof or walk away. surely you can get the SSR number by looking at the boat though i don't think knowing it would get you any closer to proof of title.

i'm no lawyer but i imagine a document signed by the vendor to the effect that he has clear title would enable you to sue him if a mortgagor crawls out of the woodwork.

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[Tim_Bennett]

IMO, if somebody will not release details, it may indicate there is something to hide. Do not proceed any further until you've verified all details. It sounds as if the deal has become a bit emotive for some reason. Some sellers seem bitter that they are selling 'their investment' at a loss - it's a very strong buyers market so if a seller really wants to sell they will need to be very competitive with the discount. Don't be bullied into parting with your cash until you're sure all is in order, and better still, ask a local reputable yacht broker if they can act as the 'conveyancing solicitor'. Their charges are usually very modest and it will ensure you don't miss anything. Good Luck.

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[Joe_Cole]

You are perfectly in order; there is no sensible reason for them to withold the information (unless they have changed their mind and are hoping that this will persuade you to pull out or they might just want to delay things so that they can enjoy the season with her).

Have you had a survey done? If they are like this at this stage then heaven knows what they will be like later. To be frank I would be very inclined to pull out; too much hassle. However, if you've fallen for the boat that's easier said than done.

On a separate point. I assume from what you say that this is a private sale, so why are they charging VAT? It's unusual for private sellers to be VAT registered and if they are not registered then they shouldn't be charging VAT. You would, of course, be fully entitled to ask for their VAT number and it would be interesting to hear their response. Of course, it could be that the boat is owned by a company...........which brings us back to the question you first asked them!

Good luck with it.

Joe

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[CharlesM]

Unfortunately the boat has never had VAT paid on her. I intend to do everything by the book... also issues with RCD, and need to get proof was imported prior to 16 June 1998. !!

Am thinking I might just walk away. - but I do so like the boat :-(

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[ex-Gladys]

Do you like it enough to throw away £40grand? Plenty more boats out there, and the next will be better.

<hr width=100% size=1>Larry Botheras

Anderson 26 "Amber"

 

[Joe_Cole]

Oh, right! Out of interest does that mean if it was imported post '98 that you pay the VAT direct to the VAT man.

If you really like the boat it may be worth a call to them to explain what, and why, you need the info. Sometimes these things can be sorted out with a chat, but its difficult to say "Lets be pleasant about this and incidently if you don't comply then I'm pulling out", but it does sound as if you've got to gently lay the law down!

Joe


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[andyball]

well, people can seem strange....

They may mean by "at this point" : " not 'til we've seen a deposit & you've had your survey"....or as already suggested "we don't want you to know how much we paid"

ssr means v.little at all.....think of a name & you can get an ssr- no checks, nothing.

If the current owners imported her, as long as they can prove purchase from abroad before you hand over the cash....why not?.

btw, how do you check for mortgages on a boat that's not registered?.....are there so few lenders that you can ring them all?...& what if they changed the name?





We tried to buy a boat in April'ish last year, "selling due to ill health". After waiting 'til the owner was out of hospital ,he decided to keep it for the season : "call me in the autumn".

Nothing better (nothing at all) had come up, so we called...." I can't make up my mind whether to sell....I'll decide by Xmas"

Xmas came & went....while in Holland viewing another boat (same model,newer & nicer, but £15K more ) we get an email; "yes, I want to sell the boat to you".

Kept Dutch deal on the boil just in case ,came home & tried to organise transport, paperwork checks , de-registration from Germany etc etc.

No response for a week , then "I've changed my mind " (again).

Luckily the Dutch deal was still warm, & we bought that one.

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[LORDNELSON]

I do feel that if you have ANY doubts about the title of this boat you should walk away from it. It used to be the case that the sale document contained a declaration by the seller that "... the boat is certified to be sold free from all debts and encumbrances...." but I do not know how good that would be in law. Have you read the RYA booklet on purchasing a second hand boat? I think the advice given below to involve a good yacht broker in the purchase is a sound idea, if you can get one to do so and if you really must buy this boat.

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[Dek]

If you purchase a boat (or anything else for that matter) in good faith then you acquire a right or interest in the property. A problem may arise when anyone else comes along with a "right or interest" in the property (such as a hire purchase company).
Then you could well end up in court where the court will decide who is the rightful owner, this could be expensive and could go against you. Any declaration made to you by the vendor is unlikely to affect the decision of a court.
You could, of course then sue the vendor, but do you want all this hassle? A few sailing seasons will have passed with no guarantee of success!!

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[Bladerunner]

I am in the same position as you at the moment (although my purchase is significantly below £40k) and I have already walked away from 2 deals because alarm bells were ringing after talking to the vendor.

One of the boats I had my eye on for 12 months before taking the plunge. it's everything I want and at a good price but i pulled out before having a survey.

If it doesn't feel right don't do it.

In your price range the choice is enormous. As somebody mentioned previously it's a buyers market. It's your cash ............. make the right decision .

<hr width=100% size=1> Bladerunner - Hung like Einstein. Brains like a donkey

 

[milltech]

Oh for the old days when the Bill of Sale used to read, "£1 and other considerations"


<hr width=100% size=1>John
http://www.on-line-marine.com

 

[extravert]

>Obtuse vendor or pendantic purchaser?

Both! But they should not be obtuse and you have every right to be pedantic.
The vendor's attitude is not normal and sounds very suspicous. Even if they would rather you did not know what they paid for the boat, that is not a good enough reason to hide any information from you.

In addition to being able to see all the documentation that they have, you also need them to give permission to their insurance company for you to enquire from the insurance company whether there are any other interests registered in this boat (ie a mortgage company). If they won't even let you see the SSR document, they are not likely to let you start querying their insurance.

These people have either never sold a boat before, in which case they will continue like that until they change their ways, or they are hiding something. Go and look at some other boats.

In the meantime get hold of the RYA booklet on buying a boat privately. Best £5 you can spend.

 

[jsl]

In a house-sale where information/documentation is unavailable, vendors can buy and assign an insurance policy covering the possibility of future problems with [e.g.] building reg's or planning permission. This is not expensive even for half a million's worth of cover. You might ask your vendors whether they are prepared to indemnify you in this way.

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[smee]

If it is SSR registered the number should be displayed on the boat, but it is absolutely no guarantee that it is legitimate. Any thief can SSR register a stolen boat in their own name, no questions asked!

Even if you approach all the mortgage companies you can think of, they won't tell you anything, as they have to abide by data protection!

The closest you have is their word, and if that isn't good enough for you walk away, or use a broker in future!



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[BrianJ]

In some parts of OZ , before you buy your dream ,you can submit all details to the Dept of Motor Vehicles ( with whom you have to register the yacht / boat ) and they will check and tell you the details of previous owners and if any money owing etc... not a bad idea.
BrianJ

<hr width=100% size=1>BrianJ

 

[CharlesM]

Hey Brian

The vessel was aparantly built in Oz. Could you perhaps send me the contact details of this agency/department. Perhaps this way I could trace the origins of the boat.

When I viewed the boat, there was a stack of paperwork, and although I asked to view it one of the owners (the wife) kinda paged through it and physically held it close to her chest... she obviously did not want me to see it. I assumed it was because she did not want me to see the price they paid so I smiled and did not press... They did show me a photocopy of the Oz registration document. Aparantly the original had to be returned to the above mentioned department when the vessel was exported.

regards
Charles

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[CharlesM]

Yo Extravert

Regarding your statement about the vendor either never having sold a boat before or hiding something... They say they have loads of experiance, and have owned boats in NZ before.

I do feel that they may have been a bit lax in their own investigations when purchasing the vessel. When I first mentioned I wished to do morgage (or title) checks they seemed insulted. But this is supposed to be standard practice is it not?

Also, there is a little issue about the RCD. They feel it is exempt because it is 20 years old, but IMO this is not adequate. I may be reading the RCD info incorrectly, but I feel the relevant issue is *exempt if first sold or put into service in the EEC prior to 16 June 1998*. I really do not see any age related relief where the boat comes from outside the EEC.

Anyone have any comment on my interpretation of the RCD rules?

Oh, regarding VAT. Someone mentioned that point earlier. I will be paying that directly to the VAT man. (just to clarify)

Regards
Charles

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[extravert]

> They say they have loads of experiance, and have owned boats in NZ before.

But that's the problem again. They say, but how do you know?

They should not be insulted by your wanting to do investigations. It is not just standard practice, it is absolutely essential.

Have you ordered that RYA booklet yet? Item code G21 here...

http://www.ceproof.com/recreational_craft_directive_RCD.htm

it sounds like it will need to be made compliant and certified according to the RCD. Do they have any evidence that it was put into use in the EU prior to 16/6/1998, or are they going to say they have evidence, but not show you because you have insulted their integrity by asking them?

This sounds more and more dubious, and they sound more and more like people not to do business with.

<hr width=100% size=1>One day, I want to be a real sailor. In the mean time I'll just keep tri-ing.