Not quite single line reefing - why?

[ylop]

To my mind the main advantage of single line reefing is that you can reef from the cockpit without having to go forward in what may be poor condidtions.

The reefing system on my boat is AFAIK Standard Bavaria factory issue. There are three reefs each with a line through the cringle at the luff fed through the boom and back to the cockpit. That bit works well. At the leech though the cringles aren't on a line, instead the cringle which creates the "new tack" is manually placed over a hook close to the gooseneck then the halyard is tightened. Presumably someone thought there was an advantage to this? Is there a good reason not to modify the routing of the reefing lines so they go via the corresponding "tack cringle" (and obviously a pully etc). Surely they haven't done this just to save a few m of rope - so there must be a downside?

 

[Hermit]

BY the sounds of it you may have your luff and leach terms mixed up. From what I understand, the rear edge of the sail (leach) has the reefing lines through cringles and the front edge of the sail (luff) uses hooks at the gooseneck to secure the tack cringles.

This is what I would describe as a 'normal' slab reefing set up and works fine. Yes, there are many ways to change this to a single lines but just adding a block at the luff cringles as you say needs a bit more thought as the downside is very high friction leading to very hard work to reef.

You also don't mention where your main halyard and topping lift are (assuming back to the cockpit) both of which are also obviously very important for reefing.

 

[DJE]

You have standard slab reefing with the hook at the gooseneck and a line pulling down the leach cringle. The next step I would say would be to add a second line pulling down the luff cringle and do away with the hook. I had this arrangement on my previous boat. It needed a lot of turning blocks and clutches but it worked very well. Single line reefing generally uses sliding blocks inside the boom to ensure a fair run for the luff reef line with the sail reefed. But friction remains and although it is easy enough to get a reef in, shaking one out can be hard work.

Edit: Diagram of Selden single line system.
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/attachments/upload_2019-3-20_15-21-4-png.162738/

 

[Stemar]

just adding a block at the luff cringles as you say needs a bit more thought as the downside is very high friction leading to very hard work to reef.

You'll need a block at the gooseneck to lead the line up to the cringle. At the luff cringle, you can just run the rope through the cringle, but that will probably give too much friction, it certainly did for me, so I made up a block with a bit of webbing going through the cringle to a D ring on the other side and it made a huge difference. Do get good ball bearing blocks; for this application they're well worth the extra money .

 

[flaming]

To my mind the main advantage of single line reefing is that you can reef from the cockpit without having to go forward in what may be poor condidtions.

The reefing system on my boat is AFAIK Standard Bavaria factory issue. There are three reefs each with a line through the cringle at the luff fed through the boom and back to the cockpit. That bit works well. At the leech though the cringles aren't on a line, instead the cringle which creates the "new tack" is manually placed over a hook close to the gooseneck then the halyard is tightened. Presumably someone thought there was an advantage to this? Is there a good reason not to modify the routing of the reefing lines so they go via the corresponding "tack cringle" (and obviously a pully etc). Surely they haven't done this just to save a few m of rope - so there must be a downside?

I think you have your luff and leach back to front.

Assuming that, then what you have described is standard slab reefing. The disadvantage is exactly as you say - have to go to the mast to hook on the new cringle.
The advantages are that you can individually adjust the luff tension and the outhaul tension, so get better control over sail shape, with fewer blocks there is a lot less friction in the system (especially noticeable when you are shaking reefs out) and that when you have all three reefs in, you end up with a huge amount of rope in the cockpit.

It's a choice...

 

[emandvee44]

We recently had a bad experience with our reefing system. Apart from the usual problem of trying to reef too late (I thought she was going well – other half was a bit nervous - to say the least ), it was very difficult to winch in the reefing lines.
Anyway, after safely reaching our destination I decided to have an appraisal of the reefing system. The boom internal car system is exactly as shown in post. no. 3 above, but friction had been a problem (14mm lines). I ordered new lines 2mm less diam.
Reefs 1 & 2 use the boom internal cars and the system now works well; no need to go on deck as the luff pulls down as you winch in, as it is supposed to do.
However, when things get really hairy and you need to put in the third reef, a trip on deck is required, as the third reef rope goes from the boom, up to the third reef leach cringle, back to the boom end pulley, along inside the boom to the goose neck, down to a mast foot block and back to the cockpit. The 3rd. reef luff cringle has to be pulled down by hand and hooked onto the goose neck hook, as the main halyard is slacked, and this in probably difficult conditions.
It would be safer to have reef 1 ‘handraulic’ and reefs 2 & 3 single line. I am planning to re-rig this way.

 

[Daydream believer]

I see no point in having blocks in the boom as they just make for more friction. They do NOT add to the leverage as I set up a test rig on a bench & inserted a set of fishing scales in the system to prove otherwise.
If a line were to break at sea it would be impossible to rectify. A straight line could possibly be sorted if there was no obstruction within the boom.
As for the 3rd reef- I would suggest that it is not needed very often ( How often does one meet F9) so need not have single line. There are other ways, but they do need a trip forward.
As for comments about long lines in the cockpit i think that is irrelevant. It just involves an extra couple of coils hung up. Surely no sensible sailor leaves loose line on the cockpit floor.

 

[Keith 66]

Im just thinking through all this at moment, boat is an elderly Sabre 27 & the existing reefing set up is frankly a mess. Original roller reefing boom converted to slab with add on bits, original roller gearseized solid & gooseneck worn out. Pennant leads to the reefing tracks are too far forward. A recent sail out of the medway in a good ne breeze & quite rough reminded us that we are not as strong as was, I have arthritis in one arm, my wife has two new hips & arthritis in her hands. It occured to me as i farted about trying to sort a reef out while holding on that if i went over the side i was basically in trouble as she wouldnt be able to get me back aboard.
And so a new boom & sails are about to be ordered & the whole lot sorted out!

 

[ylop]

Yes I did mix my luff and my leach… doh!
Yes all the lines come back to the cockpit. It’s a Bavaria used for cruising not racing so control of sail shape is not really my number 1 priority whilst avoiding sending someone to the mast if it is lumpy is attractive - in reality if conditions warrant the 3rd reef I’d rather leave the sail in the bag than send someone to the mast. The excess line would likely fit under the spray hood so not be too big a pain. Friction is hard to judge without trying … and I could imagine that could be a pain for all the times you are not reefed.

thanks all for the points to consider

 

[Daydream believer]

Friction is hard to judge without trying … and I could imagine that could be a pain for all the times you are not reefed.

If you are not reefed, how can friction be a problem? The lines just sit there waiting to be used.
For storage I use 4 barton line tamers for all my control lines. These are fitted to the aft end of the cockpit.I have 26 control line options in my cockpit so I need to keep things tidy
Line tamers
As an added advantage.
Sometimes in heavy weather I put in 2 reefs when approaching a port ( I did this 2 weeks ago when closing on Ostend in a rolly sea) I did not pull them hard in, but it gathered in a lot of sail. So when I wanted to lower the sail there was only a short amount to gather in & no loose lines around . It shortened the time on deck securing the head.

 

[dgadee]

I see no point in having blocks in the boom as they just make for more friction. They do NOT add to the leverage as I set up a test rig on a bench & inserted a set of fishing scales in the system to prove otherwise.
If a line were to break at sea it would be impossible to rectify. A straight line could possibly be sorted if there was no obstruction within the boom.
As for the 3rd reef- I would suggest that it is not needed very often ( How often does one meet F9) so need not have single line. There are other ways, but they do need a trip forward.
As for comments about long lines in the cockpit i think that is irrelevant. It just involves an extra couple of coils hung up. Surely no sensible sailor leaves loose line on the cockpit floor.
View attachment 142985

That is the system on my Dehler. In my view it needs an electric winch (which Dehler has). The friction is huge, as is the amount of rope produced in the cockpit.

 

[bitbaltic]

As usual, a single line reefing discussion focuses on friction. As usual, I will make the point that to reduce friction you have to look at absolutely every part of the system (and not focus just on line size etc). It’s now 9 years since I totally overhauled the sail handling on my 30 footer. As Sam says, blocks in the boom on a smaller boat are a waste of time and I removed them. But that was accompanied by:

new sails with a fully battened main;
Rigging reefs 1 and 2 as single line with 6mm dyneema;
All ball bearing blocks both at the reef point and the mast foot;
New deck tidys with optimised entry angles;
Tidesmarine Teflon mast track;
Massively upgraded twin speed Harken 35.2 winches both coachroof and primary;
Gas kicker rather than relying on the topping lift;
Retaining slab reefing on the little used third reef (also 6mm dyneema).

the result is a single line setup which works quickly and easily with excellent sail shape for the last 9 years. But basically, if you leave any single source of friction in the system, it will be enough of a problem to ruin the single line experience.

I’ve sailed lots of Bavs with the original slab setup and don’t think it’s too much of a problem as they usually stand up well to the wind and a cruising sailor picks his windows. I went through the above because my Hanse is light and relatively tippy. It made a huge difference for family sailing- prob fair to say we would not still have the boat if I hadn’t done it- we would have bought a bigger, slab reefed Bavaria ?

 

[Poignard]

Personally, I don't feel the need to have halyards etc brought back to the cockpit. It is only a short walk (or crawl) from there to the mast.

But I would like a gallows with hollows into which I could drop the boom.

 

[Daydream believer]

Personally, I don't feel the need to have halyards etc brought back to the cockpit. It is only a short walk (or crawl) from there to the mast.
But I would like a gallows with hollows into which I could drop the boom.

But it is not just getting to the mast; which in itself can be a pain; but one has to stand up to operate the halyard winch etc. It takes 2 hands to hook a sail onto gooseneck horns whilst controlling the halyard. Then one needs at least one hand to operate the winch, at one point both hands. One cannot coil a halyard with one hand either. So at several points in the operation one has to balance. When I am at the mast I put my back to the shrouds & push hard on them for support. But that still leaves me in a perilous situation. When the sail comes down I try to lay across the boom whilst securing the halyard to stop the head from flying up the mast track again.
I regularly sail in 2-3 metre plus seas, which in the N sea can be quite steep. That makes my boat roll very sharply from side to side. Reefing in the approaches to the Alderney Race in wind over tide situations, or off Barfleur can be quite hairy if on deck. It is bad enough heading between Dover & Ramsgate sometimes when it is getting dark & one is at the turn of the tide in 22kts of wind & in need of the second reef.
I prefer to stay in the cockpit.

One does not need gallows when single line reefing. They would be a nuisance. Just tension the topping lift having eased the vang.. Letting the sail & boom shake a bit shakes the lines through the friction points, lessening even more, any friction that might occur. Tighten the clew a bit before easing the halyard fully & that pulls the leech aft & kicks the boom up a little, clear of the crew's head. Then tighten down the luff against the halyard to finish it off. Release any topping lift & tighten the vang. Coil the ropes & away you go.

 

[Poignard]

I have a downhaul on the gooseneck (the gooseneck slides on a short length of track) and that is used to tension the luff when the sail is hoisted. The sail is quickly hoisted without the need of a winch. If I ever feel the need to use a halyard winch I can stand in front of the mast facing aft with feet spread apart. A technique used by Eric Hiscock (who seemed to know what he was doing)

I removed my reefing horns and now simply pass a lashing through the reef cringle and around the boom. Two lines for this purpose are kept handy at the mast.

When I drop the mainsail I just pass its halyard under the winch and tension it; that stops it going anywhere.

The only time I feel at all insecure these days is standing on the coachroof securing the sail to the boom. For which purpose I use an Octopus made of bungee with eyes and toggles. But having the boom held rigidly in a gallows or crutch would simplify the operation.

Still, we all find ways of doing things that work for us on our particular boats and one man's meat may be another man's poison, as they say.

 

[Daydream believer]

If I ever feel the need to use a halyard winch I can stand in front of the mast facing aft with feet spread apart. A technique used by Eric Hiscock (who seemed to know what he was doing)

Eric Hiscock did what he did because the things available at the time were all he had. Whilst he made good use of them one has to point out that quoting what he did is no longer relevant.
Do you really believe that he & his wife would have spent days at the helm rolling down wind if they had access to an Aeries self steering, or a modern autopilot. Read his diaries about some of their ocean crossings.
Do you really believe that he would have struggled at the mast if a RELIABLE modern single line reefing, with ball bearing blocks , dynema lines modern clutches & self tailing winches & friction free kit all working from the cockpit, had been available? I doubt it.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The solution to the 3rd reef is, at the time you put the second feef in, if ypu have a slight suspicion that you’ll need the third, to transfer the 1st reef blocks to the 3rd reef cringles. The leech in particular is tricky, but not as tricky as larking about when you really REALLY need that 3rd reef. You could ask how I’m so certain, but I’m sure you can all guess.

 

[Poignard]

00

Eric Hiscock did what he did because the things available at the time were all he had. Whilst he made good use of them one has to point out that quoting what he did is no longer relevant.
Do you really believe that he & his wife would have spent days at the helm rolling down wind if they had access to an Aeries self steering, or a modern autopilot. Read his diaries about some of their ocean crossings.
Do you really believe that he would have struggled at the mast if a RELIABLE modern single line reefing, with ball bearing blocks , dynema lines modern clutches & self tailing winches & friction free kit all working from the cockpit, had been available? I doubt it.

But I don't 'struggle' at the mast or anywhere else if I can help it. What would be the point?

The Hiscocks were certainly not averse to it fitting the latest equipment, eg Brookes & Gatehouse electronics, a fridge, a larger engine, terylene sails, synthetic ropes, roller reefing gear etc.

Wind vane systems were available while they were still sailing and having lines led back to the cockpit was also not that uncommon.

Thankfully, we are free to choose how we do things and what our priorities are. You are happy, I hope, with your boat and her gear. I am happy with mine.

 

[Neeves]

We have a Selden reefing system, or we had.

I specified a very large 3rd reef, which was conventional, 2 reefing lines, as the Selden system does not easily (if at all) allow for a monster third reef.

Our main is 45m^2 and when 3rd reefed this drops to 15m^2. Unlike Daydream we do use the 3rd reef a lot - possibly because we are not on a beat when we use the 3rd reef but do have a large head sail. We sail to weather forecasts if it is going to be a robust headwind - we stay at anchor.

Our main halyard is in the cockpit but the original 3rd reef meant someone had to go to the mast and it needed two people to sensibly reef, or multiple trips to the mast.

We simply altered our third reef to look exactly like Daydream's sketch (great minds think alike). Single line reefing. To reduce friction we replaced the reefing line with 6mm dyneema - its a bit thin to handle by hand BUT you can handle the thin line at leisure - as soon as the second reef is made - take in the slack on the third reef. We also have the halyard marked - we can drop the main to the third reef mark, apply the clutch and then take in the balance of the third reef line (with a winch if necessary). One person, in the cockpit, one winch, one bank of clutches - and use the autopilot. The line on the sail is taken round blocks attached with tape. We did consider L:FRs - but opted for ball bearing blocks (LFRs are LOW friction NOT no friction)

Daydream's system suits us because we sail as a couple but the catamaran is geared up for single handed sailing. If someone is off watch you should not need to disturb the off watch - you should be able to do everything yourself - even if you are 45kg young, or less young, lady.

We have also found that we tend to take in reef 1 a bit late, its more difficult to 'feel' the strength of the wind in a cat - it does not heel - and normally we are reaching or sailing down wind. Our practice is thus - forget the first reef and when we reef - take in the second.

Effectively we could dispense with the first reef completely. We use the Selden system for the second reef and Daydream's system for the third reef.

In addition to marking the halyard for reef points, 1st, 2nd and 3rd, we also have the topping lift adjusted to ensure it allows the boom to swing freely without touching anything (and we stop it swinging with the mainsheet). The topping lift is marked - if it is loosened - we know exactly where to secure it.

There is a lot of string about with a single line 3rd reef - but if its 6mm its manageable especially as we would take some in when we have taken in the 2nd reef. We simply coil it up, and hang it neatly with bungee. When we instal the third reef we take in the balance once the reef itself has been taken in - its not difficult - just needs discipline.

Our system works because we had a big enough bank of clutches at the outset, we had a winch in the right place, we downsized the reefing lines from 12mm to 6mm and we mark the halyard for the reefing point. We also have the reefing lines marked - so we know that if we have not reached the mark - there is a jamb somewhere in the system. The only investment was the 6mm reefing line and two ball bearing blocks.

BUT - like most arrangements on a yacht there are many ways to arrange systems to suit you and your crew - there is no right and wrong (or there might be some wrongs but there are lots of rights ).

Jonathan

 

[geem]

Eric Hiscock did what he did because the things available at the time were all he had. Whilst he made good use of them one has to point out that quoting what he did is no longer relevant.
Do you really believe that he & his wife would have spent days at the helm rolling down wind if they had access to an Aeries self steering, or a modern autopilot. Read his diaries about some of their ocean crossings.
Do you really believe that he would have struggled at the mast if a RELIABLE modern single line reefing, with ball bearing blocks , dynema lines modern clutches & self tailing winches & friction free kit all working from the cockpit, had been available? I doubt it.

You are assuming the Hiscocks sailed a boat like yours. I doubt it was made of plastic and light and bouncy with nowhere to stand on deck. What works for you doesn't always works for a completely different boat.
We reef at the mast. We wouldn't have it any other way. Super stable boat with flush decks and large granny bars. It would be easy to convert to doing all the reefing in the cockpit but we don't want to do that. We have no fear of going on deck to reef. Wide side decks, good hand holds and a secure location at the mast make it our preferred way of doing things.
We can put a reef in or out faster than anybody. We have almost no friction. What you describe as RELIABLE single line reefing sounds like a disaster waiting to happen to us. You say friction free kit. Since when have clutches and blocks become friction free? Our main halyard has the top mast sheeve then the ST winch on the mast. No clutches, no blocks. The reefing line runs to the reefing winch at the mast. Vastly reduced friction compared to single line. As a result of this set up we have only the genoa sheets in the cockpit and the mainsheet. A nice clear cockpit. We don't all choose to sail in the same way or with the same boat. We do choose a system that suits our needs and wants. Yours happens to be totally different to mine and others on here who wouldn't dream of single line reefing.