Northshore in trouble???

[Sailfree]

Lot of rubbish spoken on here about debt.

Often to buy a house it was the only way to achieve your goal. i am in the fortunate position of paying off my last mortgage and having paid off all debts but as a child of the 60's i know what high interests rate mean and high inflation.

When I bought my High Fi with price increases running at 15-20% pa it was cheaper to buy iitems now at todays price on credit and quickly pay off credit.

Life is short, happiness is living within your means but that does not mean you cannot buy something you want today - like a boat- providing you can afford the running costs and mortgage and get years of pleasure now not some time in the future!

 

[Whitelighter]

Don't forget while inflation erodes your savings it also erodes the value of your debt. So long as you can afford it (a major caveat) then it can be cheaper to borrow than spend cash depending on what else you are invested in

 

[Oscarpop]

Don't forget while inflation erodes your savings it also erodes the value of your debt. So long as you can afford it (a major caveat) then it can be cheaper to borrow than spend cash depending on what else you are invested in

That was our rationale.

The banks were lending at 1.5 over base.

My savings were making .5 .

6 of my friends died in the last 18 months, and never realised their dreams.

You are a long time dead.

 

[sighmoon]

Lot of rubbish spoken on here about debt.

Not at all. But there are lots of different perspectives on debt.

Don't forget while inflation erodes your savings it also erodes the value of your debt. So long as you can afford it (a major caveat) then it can be cheaper to borrow than spend cash depending on what else you are invested in

That makes sense - our mortgage rate is below inflation, so it makes no sense to pay it off early, when there are investments around reliably yielding more.

All the same, we overpay when possible. To me, it's a bit like sailing off a lee shore. If you have a good offing, you have time to sort out the ship if something unforeseen happens.

As far as boats go, I don't think a more expensive one is necessarily more enjoyable. Perhaps less so, with the stress of a new one starting to look second hand.

 

[Whitelighter]

As far as boats go, I don't think a more expensive one is necessarily more enjoyable. Perhaps less so, with the stress of a new one starting to look second hand.

I would certainly agree with that

 

[Colvic Watson]

well I think some of you guys should apologise to the OP of the first thread

he was dead right

clearly the word was out on Friday to everybody but the people who might be just about to transfer money into the hands of the receivers for yachts they will never receive

it is what the web is for - it empowers ordinary people

well done solentboy

D

Sadly Dylan the web empowers people to make anonymous, unsubstantiated statements, witness the febrile libelling of Lord MacAlpine. It gives freedom to spread truth and lie. The OP was rightly criticised for posting a rumour he'd heard without a shread of evidence. Next time the post may be about a defenceless and "innocent" company and I hope anonymous, unsubstantiated rumours posted on here continue to be met with a robust rebuttal. After all the next rumour might be about you or me or ExSolentBoy.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Sadly Dylan the web empowers people to make anonymous, unsubstantiated statements, witness the febrile libelling of Lord MacAlpine. It gives freedom to spread truth and lie. The OP was rightly criticised for posting a rumour he'd heard without a shread of evidence. Next time the post may be about a defenceless and "innocent" company and I hope anonymous, unsubstantiated rumours posted on here continue to be met with a robust rebuttal. After all the next rumour might be about you or me or ExSolentBoy.

I shall quote myself to you, as you clearly haven't bothered to read or understand what went before.

"Not disclosing why you know something is true is not the same as speculating on the truth."

 

[Twister_Ken]

"Not disclosing why you know something is true is not the same as speculating on the truth."

Quite. Also known as protecting your source.

 

[Colvic Watson]

I shall quote myself to you, as you clearly haven't bothered to read or understand what went before.

"Not disclosing why you know something is true is not the same as speculating on the truth."

I read and understood what has been written before. Inconceivable though it may seem to you, after reading it I still disagree with you. You turned up here on a Friday afternoon saying "I've heard a rumour that Northshore have appointed an administrator, does anyone know anything about it?" When you were repeatedly asked for corroboration you refused to give it and then told us you'd thought better of your actions and rung their MD four times to try and apologise. You may or may not have had evidence to support the rumour but what you posted was plain and simple a rumour. Should each rumour posted here be believed because we must assume the OP knows it's true but can't tell us why? What percentage of internet rumours are true, 5%? Less? But your rumours are different, they're always true? I hope that unsubstantiated rumour is challenged here, regardless of whether it comes from you or someone else and that we don't assume that if someone is spreading a rumour then they must have some secret body of knowledge to back it up. That would just be silly.

 

[richardbayle]

I read and understood what has been written before. Inconceivable though it may seem to you, after reading it I still disagree with you. You turned up here on a Friday afternoon saying "I've heard a rumour that Northshore have appointed an administrator, does anyone know anything about it?" When you were repeatedly asked for corroboration you refused to give it and then told us you'd thought better of your actions and rung their MD four times to try and apologise. You may or may not have had evidence to support the rumour but what you posted was plain and simple a rumour. Should each rumour posted here be believed because we must assume the OP knows it's true but can't tell us why? What percentage of internet rumours are true, 5%? Less? But your rumours are different, they're always true? I hope that unsubstantiated rumour is challenged here, regardless of whether it comes from you or someone else and that we don't assume that if someone is spreading a rumour then they must have some secret body of knowledge to back it up. That would just be silly.

Oh how I agree with this one.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

I read and understood what has been written before. Inconceivable though it may seem to you, after reading it I still disagree with you. You turned up here on a Friday afternoon saying "I've heard a rumour that Northshore have appointed an administrator, does anyone know anything about it?" When you were repeatedly asked for corroboration you refused to give it and then told us you'd thought better of your actions and rung their MD four times to try and apologise. You may or may not have had evidence to support the rumour but what you posted was plain and simple a rumour. Should each rumour posted here be believed because we must assume the OP knows it's true but can't tell us why? What percentage of internet rumours are true, 5%? Less? But your rumours are different, they're always true? I hope that unsubstantiated rumour is challenged here, regardless of whether it comes from you or someone else and that we don't assume that if someone is spreading a rumour then they must have some secret body of knowledge to back it up. That would just be silly.

All rumours started on the Internet are not true. This was not a rumour to me. It was a fact from a reliable source.

The source of my information did not want to be named. I respected that.

What I committed to do was apologise if I was wrong. As I knew I wasn't there was little risk.

You can in future choose to believe or disregard anything I say. Frankly, I don't give a ........

 

[jbweston]

Ex-SolentBoy, unfortunately there are one or two (or twenty-one or -two) people on ybw.com who like nothing better than a good dispute, and preferably one where they can adopt the 'I am right, you are wrong - and I know that because I say so, and as I am right . . .' style of discussion.

I'm sure you are best to be philosophical about it and when people treat themselves too seriously and get a bit much, have a good laugh at their antics. We are sailing (and therefore here) for enjoyment, after all. Peytonesque is so much more fun than Scargillite.

Don't let them grind you down.

 

[Colvic Watson]

Clearly neither of you are wrong and I suspect never are. For me the discussion has run its course, you both know how I feel about your actions but in your eyes you were blameless and who knows, maybe you always are when posting rumours, it's not something I get into and I think I'll just leave you to post them in future.

 

[Neeves]

Odd thread this one, better to castigate Ex S B than worry about the demise of the UK yacht building industry, its virtually gone in Oz as well.

But odder

Ex S B opened his thread, on the 12th?, with his warning that the Administrators were to be called in on the 15th. The employees were served notice, informally, on the 12th (letters on the 13th), so the information was then in the public domain. The administrator did arrive on the 15th, it took till the 16th before a supplier raised the alarm and the 17th before there was an independent press release, see the first post.

In the press release it suggests rumours had been circulating for a month (so Ex S B's thread was hardly unexpected news?) and I'm guessing someone had been watching, over that month, to see what might transpire.

There seems no concern that at the critical date of the 12th, when it obviously was no longer a secret, it was all kept very quiet, other than Ex S B whose thread was closed and he received numerous slaps on the wrist, for almost a further week.

Jonathan

 

[E39mad]

I'd like to hear more about how this company can be saved than flinging mud around.

Did I see that Princess Yachts here just thrown a £4million govt lifeline?

French yacht manufacturers have been heavily govt subsidised for 30 years. I'd rather not see another great British product and skills go down the drain!

 

[Tranona]

I'd like to hear more about how this company can be saved than flinging mud around.

Did I see that Princess Yachts here just thrown a £4million govt lifeline?

The press report says it is liquidation rather than administration which suggests that there is not much worth having in its current form, although that does not mean that another business might not start up using some of the assets.

Princess have not been "thrown a lifeline" - they have received a grant to expand a thriving business, not to prop up a failing one. Bit of a difference!

 

[jbweston]

Tranona, I agree with you. Taxpayer's money to help successful businesses, or ones that could be successful with a little help, is one thing, but putting investment into ones that are failing (whether it's private or public investment) is usually a waste. Sometimes a well-intentioned waste, but a waste all the same. For old guys like me it reminds me of British Leyland and the old Triumph Motorcycles at Meriden (not the new successful Triumph) - a complete waste of taxpayers' money and a cruel raising of false hopes for the workforce.

I do feel really sorry for the Northshore employees. I was searching seriously for a good Vancouver 34 a few years back, and visited the yard on normal business days and on an open day. I liked the boats very much. I remember the yard had a touch of the traditional British boatyard about it - which has both good and bad aspects. A bit untidy to look at and organization apparently on the haphazard side, which of course might well have been a sign of a workforce that could produce good boats without heavy supervision, or it might have been a symptom that things weren't well managed.

I remember finding the Hallberg Rassy yard in Sweden a big contrast. This appeared to be a combination of craftsmanship and tight production management - good if you can pull it off. Which they seemed to be doing in the good times in 2010 before the economic crash. A visit to HR in 2012 showed a different picture - still impressive and well organized but obviously working at very much reduced capacity.

Najad (close by HR) seemed to have more in common with Northshore. Good boats built to a high standard but less evidence of being well managed. Doesn't mean they weren't being well managed but they weren't showing it off as a virtue like HR did. That might be my speaking with the benefit of hindsight, because Najad went bust soon after. Last year Henån (more or less a Najad company town) was rather a sad sight with the yard divided up into multiple smaller businesses. Since then, as far as I can interpret the news, the people who took Najad over from administration have gone bust too.

In the end I bought a Malö, for no better reasons than I liked the boat and I liked the people both in Sweden and the UK.

All these yards building good boats - HR, Northshore, Najad, Malö - have been going through difficult times. I don't want to get into the debate (above) about the merits of borrowing money to buy a boat, but there's no doubt there is very much less money around and therefore business for all these yards now than there was three or four years ago. Reduced sales and therefore lay-offs and as we see in some cases insurmountable financial problems.

It all comes back to the UK and Europe being in the worst financial situation since the the 1930s. I hope better times will bring more trade for all of us and all of them.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

It all comes back to the UK and Europe being in the worst financial situation since the the 1930s. I hope better times will bring more trade for all of us and all of them.

Dont think so. Boatbuilding is cyclical. Had this discussion with the management at Prout cats when I bought one, and they confirmed that business was very much linked to the housing market which in turn is linked to the economic cycle. We have had downturns before like when Westerly went bust and we will have them again. The difference in the UK is that the priority when a business goes bust is to break up the business to pay off the creditor who appointed the insolvency firm - after all, insolvency firms like any other business have to look after their customers. On the continent, the legal emphasis is on saving the business and jobs whilst the creditors can go hang. One approach destroys the business, the other gives a chance of saving it.

Which in the end is what happened to our motor industry and the reason why such poor auto makers as FIAT and Renault will always survive.

 

[westernman]

Four yards which I visited which all impressed (and are very different from one another):-

Working sail:- http://www.workingsail.co.uk/
I can highly recommend the book Luke Powell wrote:- http://www.workingsail.co.uk/new-book/
Probably the guy who started the craze for new pilot cutters.

RB Boatbuilding:- http://www.pilotcutter.co.uk/
Builder and owner of the fastest pilot cutter!

Cockwells:- http://www.cockwells.co.uk/sailing-yachts/pilot-cutters
The standard of finish is remarkable.

Bristol Classic Boat Company:- http://www.bristolclassicboat.co.uk/
Exactly as the name suggests.

I wish them all well.
If you want a new custom boat in wood, very definitely the places to go to.
And for this day and age all very good value for money but of course not as cheap as a second hand Bavaria.

 

[Third mate]

The press report says it is liquidation rather than administration which suggests that there is not much worth having in its current form, although that does not mean that another business might not start up using some of the assets.

What assets ? A product that was high quality, maybe, but if you can't sell it the future is very bleak. The mid 30' market is seriously cutthroat and you cannot afford to have number of 'old Freds' up a corner of the workshop turning out fantastic quality hand built widgets admired by 'Proper sailors' who won't pay for them.

Oyster build and sell with scant regard to the economic climate. But avoid this segment of the market like the plague. Unless a UK company takes the Bav/Ben/Def route the mass market will exclude any UK manufacturer. Just having a few companies building minority appeal boats is hardly going to remedy the decline.