Non working visa EU

[Hooligan]

That’s a strange story...I wonder if it’s because he is a street performer rather than an actor....having a dog would fit that profile....every so often police do crackdown on beggars and other artistes....mind you he had no problem paying the fines so business is good

Weird story and even weirder that one country - that has literally just joined Schengen - starts banning people from the whole area. I mean can you imagine you get banned from Schengen every time you get irritated, say something stupid or lose your dog (I mean Bouba would have been hoofed out years ago for dog infractions). I am sure it isn’t anything to do with him being Serbian, honestly guv.

 

[Bouba]

Weird story and even weirder that one country - that has literally just joined Schengen - starts banning people from the whole area. I mean can you imagine you get banned from Schengen every time you get irritated, say something stupid or lose your dog (I mean Bouba would have been hoofed out years ago for dog infractions). I am sure it isn’t anything to do with him being Serbian, honestly guv.

In fact I think that the only thing that has saved me so far is my dog’s French citizenship

 

[Fr J Hackett]

In fact I think that the only thing that has saved me so far is my dog’s French citizenship

He probably speaks and understands French better than you. You wouldn't believe what he says about you to his pals.

 

[Bouba]

He probably speaks and understands French better than you. You wouldn't believe what he says about you to his pals.

Going by how he let’s them all smell his bum…I imagine it’s pretty bad

 

[Zing]

I’m curious to know what rules I have broken and of the consequences. In the last 2 weeks I have toured the Pyrenees on a motorbike. Regularly crossing from Spain to France and back and through Andorra too, all multiple times, more than a dozen border crossings, most of which are unmanned and never bothering once to get my UK passport stamped. Will I get an EU travel ban if caught? Should I have gone down from the mountain pass to the valley below to find a customs officer to stamp me out after waiting in a hotel overnight until the office is open, to then climb to the mountain top again before crossing?

 

[Hooligan]

I’m curious to know what rules I have broken and of the consequences. In the last 2 weeks I have toured the Pyrenees on a motorbike. Regularly crossing from Spain to France and back and through Andorra too, all multiple times, more than a dozen border crossings, most of which are unmanned and never bothering once to get my UK passport stamped. Will I get an EU travel ban if caught? Should I have gone down from the mountain pass to the valley below to find a customs officer to stamp me out after waiting in a hotel overnight until the office is open, to then climb to the mountain top again before crossing?

None. You are within Schengen. You merely have to leave within 99 days of arriving at your first Schengen arrival point which would seem to be Spain?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I’m curious to know what rules I have broken and of the consequences. In the last 2 weeks I have toured the Pyrenees on a motorbike. Regularly crossing from Spain to France and back and through Andorra too, all multiple times, more than a dozen border crossings, most of which are unmanned and never bothering once to get my UK passport stamped. Will I get an EU travel ban if caught? Should I have gone down from the mountain pass to the valley below to find a customs officer to stamp me out after waiting in a hotel overnight until the office is open, to then climb to the mountain top again before crossing?

None ... in theory you could have stopped your Schengen clock for the complete days you were in Andorra ... but without stamps you have no proof. Your time in Andorra will just look like time in Schengen and as long as you leave the Schengen area without running over your 90 days you're fine.

 

[greeny]

None ... in theory you could have stopped your Schengen clock for the complete days you were in Andorra ... but without stamps you have no proof. Your time in Andorra will just look like time in Schengen and as long as you leave the Schengen area without running over your 90 days you're fine.

Andorra is currently one of the loopholes in the system. Some individuals I know use it to good advantage. Enter France get stamped in. Travel into Andorra and get stamped out. Then leave Andorra into Spain with no stamp. Stay in Europe as long as you like. Then reverse the process via Andorra to get stamped in on the way back to France. Then stamped out before crossing to UK. Easy peasy. Yes I've heard all the stuff about tracking bank cards, what if you have an accident, what if you need healthcare, etc. etc. But it is working for a lot of people.

 

[Zing]

Andorra is currently one of the loopholes in the system. Some individuals I know use it to good advantage. Enter France get stamped in. Travel into Andorra and get stamped out. Then leave Andorra into Spain with no stamp. Stay in Europe as long as you like. Then reverse the process via Andorra to get stamped in on the way back to France. Then stamped out before crossing to UK. Easy peasy. Yes I've heard all the stuff about tracking bank cards, what if you have an accident, what if you need healthcare, etc. etc. But it is working for a lot of people.

Yes, I can see that work, but the risk is it looks fraudulent as if found back in Schengen without an entry stamp it looks like your exit stamp was done to deceive and I would expect there are laws and regulations to address this.

I checked the facts right now. Andorra isn’t in Schengen yet have no visa requirements. I can confirm from crossing that they operate border controls, but they do random inspections.

 

[Bouba]

Yes, I can see that work, but the risk is it looks fraudulent as if found back in Schengen without an entry stamp it looks like your exit stamp was done to deceive and I would expect there are laws and regulations to address this.

I checked the facts right now. Andorra isn’t in Schengen yet have no visa requirements. I can confirm from crossing that they operate border controls, but they do random inspections.

Can you get direct flights from England to Andorra ?

 

[Zing]

Can you get direct flights from England to Andorra ?

No airport, just heliports, so you could charter a helicopter, but it would have to refuel as its range will not be adequate. That can be done airside.

 

[westernman]

Weird story and even weirder that one country - that has literally just joined Schengen - starts banning people from the whole area. I mean can you imagine you get banned from Schengen every time you get irritated, say something stupid or lose your dog (I mean Bouba would have been hoofed out years ago for dog infractions). I am sure it isn’t anything to do with him being Serbian, honestly guv.

I think it is just a consequence of being in Schengen.

An entry ban has to effectively apply to the whole area. Otherwise you could go to any other Schengen country and then just go across the border into the country you were banned from.

This will also apply to flying into the country - there is no passport control. And airlines only check identity not whether you have overstayed in Schengen or not.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Andorra is currently one of the loopholes in the system. Some individuals I know use it to good advantage. Enter France get stamped in. Travel into Andorra and get stamped out. Then leave Andorra into Spain with no stamp. Stay in Europe as long as you like. Then reverse the process via Andorra to get stamped in on the way back to France. Then stamped out before crossing to UK. Easy peasy. Yes I've heard all the stuff about tracking bank cards, what if you have an accident, what if you need healthcare, etc. etc. But it is working for a lot of people.

I have a very good friend who is resident in Andorra, and he confirmed that the information in the link below is accurate.

Andorra isn't a loophole, it's a deception. Leaving Andorra after stamping in and entering a neighbouring Schengen country without going through immigration is breaking immigration law (the passport stamps are there for you to prove lengths of stay to the authorities). A loophole is an ambiguity or inadequacy in the law or a set of rules. There is no ambiguity or inadequacy here, people know what the rules are, and are using Andorra to try and cover up Schengen overstays by instead stamping their passports so it looks like they've been in Andorra not Schengen.

If you have residency in Andorra, an accord with France and Spain treats you as if you have a residency permit for France and Spain - so residents of Andorra are Schengen free in France, Spain and Andorra.

If you are not a resident of Andorra, then you are subject to Andorra's 90 day limit on visitors, and the Schengen rules in the neighbouring countries.

So if you stamp into Andorra/out of France for example, your 90 day Andorra visitors clock starts, and your Schengen clock stops ... if you leave Andorra for Spain without telling the authorities and getting an Exit stamp from Andorra and an Entry Stamp into Spain, then this Andorra clock keeps running, and you have entered Schengen without an entry stamp - which carries its own risk as you already mentioned.

You stay in Spain or cross to Portugal, and overstay your Schengen allowance - this means you have also overstayed your Andorran allowance according to the stamps in your passport.

... and then you try and get another passport stamp into Andorra - but officially, your passport shows you never left. If you're lucky, they stamp you in and don't notice you never stamped out. If they do notice, then the sh!t hits the proverbial fan - because the Andorrans start asking how long you've been in Andorra because they can't find a valid exit stamp from your last visit, and on top of this, the Spanish can't find your entry Stamp to Schengen, other than the now expired one.

I think your friends have just been lucky so far. In using this scheme they are presenting an incomplete travel record to border guards and relying on the border guards lack of vigilance. IMO willingly presenting a passport to a border guard with entry/exit stamps missing is basically a massive gamble.

There are cases of people being marooned in Andorra because they get refused entry into Schengen ......

I am aware of a recent case where a British passport at the Spanish border going into Spain was stamped with no entry to Spain/Schengen since they had gone through the passport stamps and discovered that the person was in overstay and therefore ban from entering the Schengen area. This is a little bit concerning obviously because in effect that person is marooned in Andorra.

Any non-resident who is visiting Andorra for any length of time should try and get a stamp out when leaving Spain into Andorra or France into Andorra. And then when you are leaving Andorra into Spain or France you should get a stamp to be stamped back in.

Andorra and Schengen Explained. ETIAS. Is Andorra in the EU?

But everyone can basically set their own level of acceptable risk, and good luck to them.

 

[Bouba]

I have a very good friend who is resident in Andorra, and he confirmed that the information in the link below is accurate.

Andorra isn't a loophole, it's a deception. Leaving Andorra after stamping in and entering a neighbouring Schengen country without going through immigration is breaking immigration law (the passport stamps are there for you to prove lengths of stay to the authorities). A loophole is an ambiguity or inadequacy in the law or a set of rules. There is no ambiguity or inadequacy here, people know what the rules are, and are using Andorra to try and cover up Schengen overstays by instead stamping their passports so it looks like they've been in Andorra not Schengen.

If you have residency in Andorra, an accord with France and Spain treats you as if you have a residency permit for France and Spain - so residents of Andorra are Schengen free in France, Spain and Andorra.

If you are not a resident of Andorra, then you are subject to Andorra's 90 day limit on visitors, and the Schengen rules in the neighbouring countries.

So if you stamp into Andorra/out of France for example, your 90 day Andorra visitors clock starts, and your Schengen clock stops ... if you leave Andorra for Spain without telling the authorities and getting an Exit stamp from Andorra and an Entry Stamp into Spain, then this Andorra clock keeps running, and you have entered Schengen without an entry stamp - which carries its own risk as you already mentioned.

You stay in Spain or cross to Portugal, and overstay your Schengen allowance - this means you have also overstayed your Andorran allowance according to the stamps in your passport.

... and then you try and get another passport stamp into Andorra - but officially, your passport shows you never left. If you're lucky, they stamp you in and don't notice you never stamped out. If they do notice, then the sh!t hits the proverbial fan - because the Andorrans start asking how long you've been in Andorra because they can't find a valid exit stamp from your last visit, and on top of this, the Spanish can't find your entry Stamp to Schengen, other than the now expired one.

I think your friends have just been lucky so far. In using this scheme they are presenting an incomplete travel record to border guards and relying on the border guards lack of vigilance. IMO willingly presenting a passport to a border guard with entry/exit stamps missing is basically a massive gamble.

There are cases of people being marooned in Andorra because they get refused entry into Schengen ......


Andorra and Schengen Explained. ETIAS. Is Andorra in the EU?

But everyone can basically set their own level of acceptable risk, and good luck to them.

Does the Andorra rule work both ways…for example if you had permanent residency in France (or Spain) can you stay as long as you like in Andorra ?

 

[westernman]

Does the Andorra rule work both ways…for example if you had permanent residency in France (or Spain) can you stay as long as you like in Andorra ?

Why would anyone want to?

 

[Bouba]

Why would anyone want to?

Just searching for those non existent loopholes that fill this forum….please folks you have had years to sort out your residency issues.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Does the Andorra rule work both ways…for example if you had permanent residency in France (or Spain) can you stay as long as you like in Andorra ?

Not sure ... here's the French agreement

Décret n° 2003-740 du 30 juillet 2003 portant publication de la convention entre la République française, le Royaume d'Espagne et la Principauté d'Andorre relative à la circulation et au séjour en Principauté d'Andorre des ressortissants des Etats tiers, signée à Bruxelles le 4 décembre 2000 (1) - Légifrance

and here's the Spanish one

Noticias Jurídicas

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Why would anyone want to?

Summary of Andorra’s Tax Rates​

Andorra’s tax system is equitable and straightforward. As with any country, there are some nuances and details, but in a nutshell, Andorra’s tax rates are:

• 10% on income for residents and companies,
• no sales tax, but there is a 4.5% VAT,
• there is no inheritance, estate or transfer tax and no tax is paid on Andorran investment income.

Explore all of our linked articles about taxes in Andorra, the rules of residency, and life here in general. And of course, remember to get in touch you have any questions.

Andorra Tax Rates | Andorra Guides

 

[greeny]

I have a very good friend who is resident in Andorra, and he confirmed that the information in the link below is accurate.

Andorra isn't a loophole, it's a deception. Leaving Andorra after stamping in and entering a neighbouring Schengen country without going through immigration is breaking immigration law (the passport stamps are there for you to prove lengths of stay to the authorities). A loophole is an ambiguity or inadequacy in the law or a set of rules. There is no ambiguity or inadequacy here, people know what the rules are, and are using Andorra to try and cover up Schengen overstays by instead stamping their passports so it looks like they've been in Andorra not Schengen.

If you have residency in Andorra, an accord with France and Spain treats you as if you have a residency permit for France and Spain - so residents of Andorra are Schengen free in France, Spain and Andorra.

If you are not a resident of Andorra, then you are subject to Andorra's 90 day limit on visitors, and the Schengen rules in the neighbouring countries.

So if you stamp into Andorra/out of France for example, your 90 day Andorra visitors clock starts, and your Schengen clock stops ... if you leave Andorra for Spain without telling the authorities and getting an Exit stamp from Andorra and an Entry Stamp into Spain, then this Andorra clock keeps running, and you have entered Schengen without an entry stamp - which carries its own risk as you already mentioned.

You stay in Spain or cross to Portugal, and overstay your Schengen allowance - this means you have also overstayed your Andorran allowance according to the stamps in your passport.

... and then you try and get another passport stamp into Andorra - but officially, your passport shows you never left. If you're lucky, they stamp you in and don't notice you never stamped out. If they do notice, then the sh!t hits the proverbial fan - because the Andorrans start asking how long you've been in Andorra because they can't find a valid exit stamp from your last visit, and on top of this, the Spanish can't find your entry Stamp to Schengen, other than the now expired one.

I think your friends have just been lucky so far. In using this scheme they are presenting an incomplete travel record to border guards and relying on the border guards lack of vigilance. IMO willingly presenting a passport to a border guard with entry/exit stamps missing is basically a massive gamble.

There are cases of people being marooned in Andorra because they get refused entry into Schengen ......


Andorra and Schengen Explained. ETIAS. Is Andorra in the EU?

But everyone can basically set their own level of acceptable risk, and good luck to them.

Thank you for explaining the law along with the risks and potential punishment if caught.
I did say loophole in the system, not the law. The system being the way Andorra operate its borders that allows people to come and go without passport checks except for occasional stops. I agree that people who operate this way are clearly breaking the rules but many are doing it and are not being caught. I'm not advocating that people should do this, merely reporting what is actually happening. All ways to circumvent the Schengen rules come with risks but many people are prepared to take the chance it would seem.
p.s. "Some individuals I know" does not necessarily mean they are my friends.

 

[Bouba]

We should run a poll
People I know have got away with it
People I know got done