Non working visa EU

[Sadlerfin]

I know this has been debated many times over but the rules are confusing and changing so any advice would be helpful. I am considering either taking a boat to the Med or buying there, I am familiar with the UK/EU vat rules concerning both options. I have funds to prove that I am self sufficient .

My quest would be to secure a visa allowing me to sail within a single EU country for at least 6 months (maybe Portugal ,Spain ,Greece) and use this as a base to travel within the EU for my 90 days this, however, raises a few questions.

1, Would a Marina contract be acceptable as proof of address?
2, If I wanted to stay no more than 6 months which country would be best?
3, Do I have to pay tax locally on my UK income with these visas I'm told in Portugal at least I would not.

Any other advice from someone who had achieved this would be most helpful.

Del Buoy

 

[Tranona]

Visas do not exist for what you want to do except in France. The process for that has been discussed at length here with examples of people who have got them.

The only way of achieving more than 90 days is to become resident in one country, of which the most popular are Portugal, Spain and Greece. They all have their own individual rules and none are easy and straightforward for somebody who does not have land based accommodation.

I think you have to accept that the days of wandering around the Med in a boat other than for short holidays is over for non EU citizens. This may well of course change, but not at EU level while the current regime is in charge, but individual states may make it easier.

 

[Solent Cruiser]

It's not what you want to hear, but my advice is don't buy a boat and seek to sail long term in the overcrowded-with monied-types, short-of marina-berths, expensive, migrant-troubled-Med, if you are a British passport holder. Stay in the UK and get Brexit reversed! Sorry.

 

[Stingo]

It's not what you want to hear, but my advice is don't buy a boat and seek to sail long term in the overcrowded-with monied-types, short-of marina-berths, expensive, migrant-troubled-Med, if you are a British passport holder. Stay in the UK and get Brexit reversed! Sorry.

Or head for the Crabby-Ian

 

[dankilb]

Or head for the Crabby-Ian

Longer term, we’re now looking at third countries - perhaps in Central America - that also have 90-day visa free travel agreements with individual EU countries. Seems to be quite a few, inc. Panama and Costa Rica. That way, live somewhere nice for a few years working towards citizenship, then have the option of 90 days on that passport (where it is accepted) and, unless ETIAS somehow torpedoes this, going out and coming back in on Brit passport for another 90. After which, the first 90/180 has reset and you can repeat.

Why, you might ask?! Well, personally I wouldn’t mind burning this passport and having citizenship somewhere less crap. But also First Mate has some viable work/career options in Spain or Portugal but I’d rather avoid importing the boat. This way I could feasibly bum around as a tourist while she works, with the boat, by playing passport switcharoo?!

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Longer term, we’re now looking at third countries - perhaps in Central America - that also have 90-day visa free travel agreements with individual EU countries. Seems to be quite a few, inc. Panama and Costa Rica. That way, live somewhere nice for a few years working towards citizenship, then have the option of 90 days on that passport (where it is accepted) and, unless ETIAS somehow torpedoes this, going out and coming back in on Brit passport for another 90. After which, the first 90/180 has reset and you can repeat.

Why, you might ask?! Well, personally I wouldn’t mind burning this passport and having citizenship somewhere less crap. But also First Mate has some viable work/career options in Spain or Portugal but I’d rather avoid importing the boat. This way I could feasibly bum around as a tourist while she works, with the boat, by playing passport switcharoo?!

Do bear in mind that when you apply for a passport (certainly a U.K. or an E.U. one) there is a question in the application requiring you to declare any other passports held, I had to provide copies of every page of my other passport. They are then linked in the IT system of the issuing country to prevent a dual citizen from creating two seperate identities.

I don't know how much of this information will make it into ETIAS but IMO I think your idea to get multiple passports and pretent to be multiple people with multiple 90/180 entitlements has a certain element of risk associated with it.

You are not the first person to think of using this apparent loophole, it used to be used to keep passport stamps from undesirable countries out of your main passport - back in the 80s for example you couldn't get into the U.S. if you had a Russian visit, and someone who has been to Israel can't get into Iran. It is much more open now, but pretty much all the nefarious uses of multiple passports are know by the authorities, and will be checked if you ever give them reason to be suspicious.

I have a U.K. friend whose U.K. passport is "flagged" in the U.K. .... he found out because it was impossible for him to get through the E-Gates, rejected every time so he asked the passport official why the gates always rejected him. She didn't know the exact reason but did say that if it really was 100% then his passport either had the same name, or his description/picture matched that of a person of interest, so he was forced through a person-to-person check every time he entered the country.

There is a lot going on in the background that travellers simply do not realise and I have been asked to present both my passports at passport control and they were checked to ascertain that they really were issued to the same person - once your passport goes through the scanner then you really have no idea what is done with the information - and as pretty much all passports now carry biometric data, I would be very surprised if the scanner didn't flag your second passport as being a biometric match for another one in the system.

The only way to find out for sure is to try it.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

One other intetresting piece of information I got from a U.K. citizen living in Italy on his Withrawal Agreement rights.

He has the right to live and work in Italy permanently, but was told that if he leaves Italy to visit another E.U. country then he must get a passport stamp at the Italian border crossing for both exit and re-entry. This is because the Schengen 90/180 rules apply for every other E.U. country apart form Italy, where he has a right to residence. My take-away is that if the Italian authorities are telling him this, then how do they react to U.K. citizens with residency in other E.U. countries coming into Italy?

This is the first time I had heard of a person with residency being given any official advice on Schengen and residency. It makes sense, as it is a grey area if you get picked up in another E.U. country with no E.U. entry stamp or a stamp older than 90 days.

The grey area is that if you then present your residency it is up to the official on the ground to decide what to do next. Maybe he accepts that you live in another E.U. country, and assumes you haven't spent more than 90 days in the rest of Schengen, or maybe he decides that you failed to stamp out of your resident country and attempts to throw the book at you for trying to bypass the Schengen rules - or something in between involving petrol receipts or other proof. Either way it has the potential to be a serious time-wasting exercise.

My friend was a little nervous because he didn't get a stamp at the Brenner pass border crossing- too much traffic and no obvious place to stop - so he just drove straight through without stopping.

 

[dankilb]

Do bear in mind that when you apply for a passport (certainly a U.K. or an E.U. one) there is a question in the application requiring you to declare any other passports held, I had to provide copies of every page of my other passport. They are then linked in the IT system of the issuing country to prevent a dual citizen from creating two seperate identities.

I don't know how much of this information will make it into ETIAS but IMO I think your idea to get multiple passports and pretent to be multiple people with multiple 90/180 entitlements has a certain element of risk associated with it.

You are not the first person to think of using this apparent loophole, it used to be used to keep passport stamps from undesirable countries out of your main passport - back in the 80s for example you couldn't get into the U.S. if you had a Russian visit, and someone who has been to Israel can't get into Iran. It is much more open now, but pretty much all the nefarious uses of multiple passports are know by the authorities, and will be checked if you ever give them reason to be suspicious.

I have a U.K. friend whose U.K. passport is "flagged" in the U.K. .... he found out because it was impossible for him to get through the E-Gates, rejected every time so he asked the passport official why the gates always rejected him. She didn't know the exact reason but did say that if it really was 100% then his passport either had the same name, or his description/picture matched that of a person of interest, so he was forced through a person-to-person check every time he entered the country.

There is a lot going on in the background that travellers simply do not realise and I have been asked to present both my passports at passport control and they were checked to ascertain that they really were issued to the same person - once your passport goes through the scanner then you really have no idea what is done with the information - and as pretty much all passports now carry biometric data, I would be very surprised if the scanner didn't flag your second passport as being a biometric match for another one in the system.

The only way to find out for sure is to try it.

Absolutely agree. All good points.

There would need to be some clear basis in law/policy that associates the 90/180 limits with the passport/citizenship, not the person. Wishful thinking, perhaps?! I haven’t looked seriously.

I do know the arrangements are with individual countries (unlike our EU/Shengen-wide 90/180). Perhaps that may be sufficient to differentiate UK and second citizenships’ entitlements?

I’m sure like on so many of these things, people’s mileage will vary in reality - although I suppose the aim of ETIAS is to centralise/harmonise in the very near future.

It would be an interesting - if potentially long and costly! - experiment. OTOH, you could get to spend a few years legitimately living and keeping the boat in a great part of the world while working towards citizenship there. OTOH, there’d be costs into the mid-5-figures I should imagine (aside from living/boat expenses) and presumably 3-5 years with no absolute guarantee of gaining the citizenship.

I do like the idea of a second citizenship route generally. It’s another ‘base’ for you and the boat. Admittedly the visa-free benefits of (other?!) ‘mid-tier’ passports are unlikely to exceed UK arrangements - but if they could legit be used consecutively that would be a game changer for me.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Absolutely agree. All good points.

There would need to be some clear basis in law/policy that associates the 90/180 limits with the passport/citizenship, not the person. Wishful thinking, perhaps?! I haven’t looked seriously.

I do know the arrangements are with individual countries (unlike our EU/Shengen-wide 90/180). Perhaps that may be sufficient to differentiate UK and second citizenships’ entitlements?

I’m sure like on so many of these things, people’s mileage will vary in reality - although I suppose the aim of ETIAS is to centralise/harmonise in the very near future.

It would be an interesting - if potentially long and costly! - experiment. OTOH, you could get to spend a few years legitimately living and keeping the boat in a great part of the world while working towards citizenship there. OTOH, there’d be costs into the mid-5-figures I should imagine (aside from living/boat expenses) and presumably 3-5 years with no absolute guarantee of gaining the citizenship.

I do like the idea of a second citizenship route generally. It’s another ‘base’ for you and the boat. Admittedly the visa-free benefits of (other?!) ‘mid-tier’ passports are unlikely to exceed UK arrangements - but if they could legit be used consecutively that would be a game changer for me.

IMO, definitely wishful thinking .... the passport is only a mechanism for identifying an individual, and citizenship is an attribute of that individual. So as an individual there may be more ways to identify yourself, and you may have multiple citizenships, but you remain one individual in the eyes of the law.

It would be absurd for example to claim that you were not guilty of stealing a car because you were arrested as a U.S. citizen with a U.S. passport, but you stole the car in the E.U. after having entered as a U.K. citizen with a U.K. passport.

Have a look at SIS, VIS and Eurodac systems to get a rough idea of what is collected and what is possible with the systems. Bear in mind that these are the things they want everyone to know about.

The Security System of the Schengen Area - SchengenVisaInfo.com

 

[Graham376]

This is the first time I had heard of a person with residency being given any official advice on Schengen and residency. It makes sense, as it is a grey area if you get picked up in another E.U. country with no E.U. entry stamp or a stamp older than 90 days.

The grey area is that if you then present your residency it is up to the official on the ground to decide what to do next. Maybe he accepts that you live in another E.U. country, and assumes you haven't spent more than 90 days in the rest of Schengen, or maybe he decides that you failed to stamp out of your resident country and attempts to throw the book at you for trying to bypass the Schengen rules - or something in between involving petrol receipts or other proof. Either way it has the potential to be a serious time-wasting exercise.

The story about Italy contradicts EU Schengen rules, with resident's right of free movement only having to register in another country after 3 months there.

We normally just drive across the Portuguese Spanish border without any formalities but Spain to Gib required passport check. When the border official inspected mine, he noticed there weren't any stamps and asked if I had residence and wanted to see my Portuguese card. All then OK and no questions about how long I had been in Spain.

 

[srm]

3, Do I have to pay tax locally on my UK income with these visas I'm told in Portugal at least I would not.

My understanding is that if you spend more than six months in Portugal in any year you should complete an income tax return (IRS). However, some others on this forum have said they do not have to. Liability for tax on UK income is complicated and professional advice is worth paying for. In my case I complete the IRS form but do not declare UK income. This is after an accountant negotiated with the local tax office on my behalf. However a UK couple I know are in the situation where one does not have to declare and the other does as it depends on the source of the income.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The story about Italy contradicts EU Schengen rules, with resident's right of free movement only having to register in another country after 3 months there.

We normally just drive across the Portuguese Spanish border without any formalities but Spain to Gib required passport check. When the border official inspected mine, he noticed there weren't any stamps and asked if I had residence and wanted to see my Portuguese card. All then OK and no questions about how long I had been in Spain.

It's got nothing to do with registration in a country, it's got to do with providing conclusive proof that when your entry and exit stamps don't match up with the Schengen rules, that this is due to residency in an EU country, AND that you have not spent more than 90/180 out of your country of residence (in the greater Schengen area).

E.G. If you are granted residency in Italy with a U.K. passport, it does not permit you more than 90 days in 180 in Austria - you can stay in Italy as long as your residency is valid so your EU entry stamp is very likely to be older than 90 days. No problem in Italy, you've got residency - but in Austria? How do the Austrian authorities ascertain that you have not been in Austria more than 90 days? They can't do it from your passport.

If you cross into Austria and in Austria your passport is subsequently checked (e.g. away from the border due to accident or emergency, contact with police, whatever) then the onus is on you to prove to the Austrians that you haven't overstayed the 90 Schengen days in their country - hence the Italian advice to "check-out" and "check-in" from Italy when you travel around Europe. This provides conclusive proof for the rest of the EU Schengen area as to when you entered Schengen. You are simply starting the Schengen clock when you leave your country of residence, and stopping it when you return.

It makes sense, but practically no-one I know who has residence actually does it. I did have an American friend who got their head chewed off by a border guard for simply forgetting to present her residency permit with her passport. She had all the paperwork, but the guard was obviously having a bad day and gave her a proper dressing down.

These incidents are rare, but have the potential to well and truly ruin your day - hence the Italian advice to non EU Italian residents to get a passport stamp when leaving and entering Italy - even when travelling within the EU. The rest of the EU Schengen area is then border free, but you are effectively living under two sets of rules, one local set for your country of residence, and one Schengen set for the rest of the Schengen area.

 

[Graham376]

It's got nothing to do with registration in a country, it's got to do with providing conclusive proof that when your entry and exit stamps don't match up with the Schengen rules, that this is due to residency in an EU country, AND that you have not spent more than 90/180 out of your country of residence (in the greater Schengen area).

E.G. If you are granted residency in Italy with a U.K. passport, it does not permit you more than 90 days in 180 in Austria - you can stay in Italy as long as your residency is valid so your EU entry stamp is very likely to be older than 90 days. No problem in Italy, you've got residency - but in Austria? How do the Austrian authorities ascertain that you have not been in Austria more than 90 days? They can't do it from your passport.

Simple fix, marry an EU citizen to allow unlimited free movement in her/his company, works for me I hear what you say but, in practical terms, many borders don't have anywhere to obtain stamps, the main emphasis is catching people entering from outside Schengen. We've been boarded several times in Spanish waters and not once have been quizzed about length of time there.

 

[LittleSister]

Visas do not exist for what you want to do except in France. . .

I seem to recall it being said on here that one other country - Sweden, perhaps? - had some sort of tourist visa which could allow a stay beyond the 90 days.

It's also been said that some other countries (Spain? Greece?) are considering the possibility of introducing such a visa, but whether this has any grounding in reality who knows, and in any case I wouldn't hold your breath in anticipation.

I don't don't disagree with the generality of your post, though. I think the significance of the loss of freedom of movement for British citizens hasn't yet sunk in for the majority of the population.

 

[jordanbasset]

I seem to recall it being said on here that one other country - Sweden, perhaps? - had some sort of tourist visa which could allow a stay beyond the 90 days.

It's also been said that some other countries (Spain? Greece?) are considering the possibility of introducing such a visa, but whether this has any grounding in reality who knows, and in any case I wouldn't hold your breath in anticipation.

I don't don't disagree with the generality of your post, though. I think the significance of the loss of freedom of movement for British citizens hasn't yet sunk in for the majority of the population.

The Spanish one has been suggested at regular intervals for the last few years, nothing has happened though

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Simple fix, marry an EU citizen to allow unlimited free movement in her/his company, works for me I hear what you say but, in practical terms, many borders don't have anywhere to obtain stamps, the main emphasis is catching people entering from outside Schengen. We've been boarded several times in Spanish waters and not once have been quizzed about length of time there.

I found obtaining an EU passport for myself easier, cheaper, and less stressful than your proposed method.

I started the process your way, divorced the wife who didn't have an EU passport and went looking for a replacement with the necessary qualifications - I wouldn't recommend it.

... and in the meantime, the ex obtained an EU passport herself.

The sh!t only hits the fan when something unexpected happens - e.g. off cruising and an emergency causes a panic flight back to the U.K. ... as already mentioned, I have been quizzed about a potential Schengen overstay in Munich Airport. Fortunately I had a German passport with me so I was delayed by a few minutes. If I hadn't had a simple explanation for the absence of an entry stamp in my UK passport I would certainly have missed my flight and possibly ended up with a fine or worse.

I have no doubt you have had many brushes with the authorities in Spain, but their true intent is unlikely to have been communicated - and as they say in investment, past performance is no guarantee of future returns.

 

[Tranona]

I don't don't disagree with the generality of your post, though. I think the significance of the loss of freedom of movement for British citizens hasn't yet sunk in for the majority of the population.

That is because for the vast majority it is of no interest. So long as they can get their regular fix in the sun or on the ski slopes they are not bothered.

The movement of people between UK and Europe has always been asymmetric - holidays and retirement one way, work and residence the other. The main losers as we see almost daily in the news are workers into the UK (and their UK employers)

 

[goeasy123]

Sadlerfin... With a few conditions a 3rd country citizen on a 3rd country boat can sail indefinitely in the EU through French, Spanish, Italian, Greek. Portuguese and Maltese water under International Maritime Organization's 1965 Convention rules. This means all on board are registered as 'in transit' on the crew list and are therefore not in the Schengen zone and not using Schengen days. The is no requirement for proof of financial means, health insurance or any form of residency or registration. And no local tax implications.

Different countries have different processes for doing this so you need to do some homework before you set out. Some require you to have a agent. Some countries require you to be paid crew. These 6 countries do DO NOT. The easiest country to deal with is Malta and the process is outlined on Noonsite. Greece is just a little more onerous where you're advise to have a agent.

If you're serious PM me and I'll give you an agent contact in Greece and some background info to get you started on the homework.

To answer your questions:

1, Would a Marina contract be acceptable as proof of address?
NO. Not needed.
2, If I wanted to stay no more than 6 months which country would be best?
You're not becoming resident. However, some countries require you to change vessel master every 6 month. In Greece, for example you must change the crew list every 6 month to show a different master. Both need to have ICC's or similar. Otherwise shuffle between Malta and Greece. ... not the only solution, but the one I know.
3, Do I have to pay tax locally on my UK income with these visas I'm told in Portugal at least I would not
No.

 

[goeasy123]

Barcelona customs have confirm that an invoice from a marina in the Balearics citing the boats name is sufficient proof of having sailed through international waters to reset the 18 mth clock.

 

[AndersG]

Barcelona customs have confirm that an invoice from a marina in the Balearics citing the boats name is sufficient proof of having sailed through international waters to reset the 18 mth clock.

That could possibly be useful in Barcelona but not something to be relied on elsewhere in Spain and completely useless in other Countries with their laws based on the EU directive and any customs officers interpretation thereof.