Non-boaty - car seat rules?

[AntarcticPilot]

When I was a lad, during the summer my brother and I would spend weeks helping our Dad deliver soap powder round the southern part of Yorkshire. We quite often built seats out of the boxes of soap powder in the payload area of the van!

However, that was before seat-belt legislation!

 

[prv]

When I was a lad, during the summer my brother and I would spend weeks helping our Dad deliver soap powder round the southern part of Yorkshire. We quite often built seats out of the boxes of soap powder in the payload area of the van!

Indeed, and as a kid (not sure exact age, but less than 8 based on when we moved house) I was once driven around in the front of a van whose passenger seat was a loose stack of old tyres

As a teenager, I also travelled to a couple of cadet camps in the back of the "baggage van", a school minibus filled above the level of the seats with everybody's kit. Towards the front, it would be filled right to the roof, creating a wall between the driver and the three or four of us lying on the bags in a comfy space in the rear. This was a brilliant arrangement for those who smoked, as they could have a crafty fag out the back window without the driver (they assumed) being any the wiser

However, that was before seat-belt legislation!

The "baggage van" trips weren't!

Pete

 

[Andrew_Trayfoot]

This sounds like a really bad idea....
As said above you have MOT and Insurance issues..
In this day and age anyone in a car should be strapped in properly in a proper seat designed and tested for the job (something you can't do, unless you have a very big budget). The manufactures have spent millions designing seats and restraints in order to save lives. How are you going to feel if someone gets hurt or killed in your DIY or aftermarket seat?


Rear facing seats are all well and good in a collision where you drive into someone, but are not so good if someone drives into the back of you at speed - There is a film somewhere showing this with an old Volvo 145.

Get yourself a Citron Zara Picaso it has 3 full size rear seats, all with 3 point seat belts. All three seats can be completely removed independently. You then have a van!

Sorry to sound a bit preaching but it needs to be said

Andrew

 

[Avocet]

Don't know if any of this is going to help, but here are some thoughts (in no particular order).

First of all, if you buy a van, it'll be registered as a goods vehicle (probably a "Category N1", as opposed to a car which is an "M1") and the number of seats will appear on the registration document. You have a statutory obligation to inform the DVLA of any changes to the particulars on the registration document. If you don't, and you have an accident (especially with someone in the back) your insurance will probably be invalidated.

Once you tell the DVLA about the changes, there's a chance (if you get an awake clerk) they'll send you to VOSA for an Individual Vehicle Approval inspection. (£200-ish quid). It's pointless relying on an MOT inspector to check the DESIGN of your car. They're trained to assess CONDITION (on the assumption that the design met the type approval requirements when the vehicle was built). It's nigh-impossible to accurately assess the design by purely visual inspection. If you have to do an IVA, make sure you apply as an "amateur builder". You'll then to the "Basic IVA" as opposed to the "Normal IVA". As the DVLA Local Offices are closing at Christmas, they'll be pretty demob-happy, so be prepared for some bizarre interpretations! If they DO make you go for an IVA test, you can at least download the Inspection manuals here:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/individual-vehicle-approval-manuals

I'd be inclined to work to the M1 manual not the N1 for goods vehicles as VOSA may not regard your completed vehicle as a goods vehicle when it's finished (depending on how much of the remaining floor area is devoted to "goods" compared to how much is devoted to "passengers". You need to look at Section 19 for belt anchorages, but the sections on seat BELTS and seat STRENGTH are well worth a look too. You need to look at the "basic" requirements, which give guidance on the visual inspection process. The "normal" requirements will just tell you to provide test evidence. Testing WILL destroy your car - it's like testing matches to prove they work.

Anyway, getting back to this van, assuming it'll be under 3.5 tonnes laden, it'll be a category "N1" vehicle and the requirements for seat belt anchorage strength will be the same as for those in a car. There's a lot of stuff here, but it's mostly about larger vehicles (M2, M3, N2 and N3):

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...9/changes-to-seatbelt-installations-guide.pdf

The principles are the same, but the test loads the belt anchorages have to withstand in an N1 are DOUBLE that which would be required in an N2. That's about 3 tons force PER SEATING POSITION (so about 9 tons trying to rip your seat out of the floor). Basically, you won't find many removable triple seats with integral belt anchorages, because it's nigh-impossible to retrospectively fit them and get them to pass a test. Be extremely careful with companies like Van Gadgets that someone posted a link to. They often claim that the seats have been successfully "M1-tested" (which they probably have) but that still leaves YOU with the responsibility of sticking the seat into the vehicle in such a way as will ensure it stays put in a crash. Ask them if it has been successfully "in-vehicle tested to the requirements of Directive 76/115/EC or ECE Regulation 14" IN THAT PARTICULAR MAKE AND MODEL OF VEHICLE. (Then watch them squirm). Don't be fobbed-off with a certificate for the seat itself - it will probably have been tested bolted to an inch-thick slab of steel. Obviously, it's small comfort that your seat has been "M1-tested" as you go through the windscreen still safely strapped into it... The bit of UK legislation that calls for this is Construction and Use Reg. 46.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/46/made

Unfortunately, that's the original regulation. It's been amended umpteen dozen times since it was first published and you have to download all the amendments separately (good luck with that)! Even when you do, it'll only point you to the EC Directive or ECE Regulation mentioned above, so you'll then have to download those. They contain positional requirements for the belt anchorages (so they actually create a useful "survival space") and strength requirements (the 3 tons per seating position). The good news is that it's not quite 3 tons and it only has to withstand it for a fifth of a second.

Be very wary of things (bolt holes, captive nuts and the like) that LOOK like they would have been the seat mountings for the seats in the car version of the van that you buy. Quite often, the vehicle manufacturer will share some of the floorpan pressings with van and passenger version, but will leave out the odd spot-welded doubler plate or reinforcing piece on the van version to save a few quid.

Although I think you're on a hiding to nothing fitting a triple seat with integral belt anchorages, you might stand a slightly better chance fitting three single seats next to each other. At least they're likely to be a bit more manageable to lift out, and the loads on the vehicle floor will be shared by a larger number of fasteners. Most people use stuff like this:

http://www.unwin-safety.com/flooring-systems/9/rail-products

to which they fit removable fittings like this:

http://www.unwin-safety.com/seating-systems/68/seat-fixtures

and the seats are then bolted to the removable fittings. lots of companies do M1 tested single seats:

http://www.rescroft.com/main/seat_defender_3.php

or this:

http://www.cogentseating.co.uk/standard.html



Fitting the seats rear-facing is a good ploy because the test load they need to withstand is only about 1/3 of the test load applied to a forward-facing seat (directed towards the back of the vehicle, on the assumption that rear impacts are never as bad as forward ones). Personally, I don't like this, because if you have a big forward crash with those seats occupied, the seat (and it's occupants) will probably just crush the driver and front seat occupant(s).

If it were me, I wouldn't dream of even trying. As others have said, cheaper just to get a "crew cab" version to start with - and MUCH safer. Also (bit of a left field suggestion) have you considered a second-hand wheelchair-accessible vehicle? They're usually extremely low mileage when they get to the end of their Motability lease and are worth buttons second-hand. Surprisingly useful for heavy, wheeled loads because of the ramp at the back!

 

[prv]

If it were me, I wouldn't dream of even trying.

It is starting to look that way. Ah well, that's why I asked. Does seem a little silly when I've sat in little side-facing fold-down seats in the back of even relatively modern landrovers, but there you go.

As others have said, cheaper just to get a "crew cab" version to start with

Nope - I'll get the 2-seater, and tell my mates to naff off if they think they're getting a lift!

I really do mean it when I say that the only time the back seats in my Polo are unfolded is when the MOT man wants to look at the belts. They usually get folded down again within a week or two, and then stay that way till the following year. I think the last time I had anyone in the back was when a bunch of us went on holiday together three years ago and I volunteered to drive us all to the airport - but we could easily have used someone else's car instead.

Pete

 

[William_H]

Certaily with modern vehicle design seats and restraints become an essential part of improving passenger safety. It is highly unlikely you could meet design standards in your seats unless they can shown to be identical to similar vehicle built/designed with seats. With most vans the floor is flat so there will be difficulty finding room for feet sufficiently lower than the seat cushion.
As an asside and referring to aircraft seat design specifically light aircraft. The modern design standard from about 20 years ago is called the 24G standard. So a passenger must be able to survive 24g in the forward direction. (plus 12g I think in other directions) The old standard was 9g.forward. The seat design must be dynamically tested. With a humanoid dummy. Every part of the seat bcomes part of the design so that later you can not even fit seat covers or replace upholstery unless it is identical to the original design. Seats and crash worthiness are considered a serious issue. it follows then that car seat design should similarly be critical.
Having said that for your needs I would just go illegal and take the risk. However you need to concentrate on fixing the seat for both forward, rearward and sideways loads assuming you start with a car seat. Then you need to engineer seat belt attachments. and drive very carefully. good luck olewill

 

[Avocet]

It is starting to look that way. Ah well, that's why I asked. Does seem a little silly when I've sat in little side-facing fold-down seats in the back of even relatively modern landrovers, but there you go.



Nope - I'll get the 2-seater, and tell my mates to naff off if they think they're getting a lift!

I really do mean it when I say that the only time the back seats in my Polo are unfolded is when the MOT man wants to look at the belts. They usually get folded down again within a week or two, and then stay that way till the following year. I think the last time I had anyone in the back was when a bunch of us went on holiday together three years ago and I volunteered to drive us all to the airport - but we could easily have used someone else's car instead.

Pete

Depending on what your budget is, I'd give serious consideration to the "old shape" Fiat Doblo. I deal regularly with Peugot Partner, Citroen (Berlingo) VW Caddy, Renault Kangoo and the Doblos have been surprisingly durable and reliable (if not pretty).

 

[gordmac]

How much space do you actually need? A medium sized estate with the seats folded down has a lot of volume, if that isn't enough a people carrier thing with removable seats is basically a van.