Newbie intro. / Sailing Costs

[Marquee]

Afternoon all. As seems to be the norm I‘be been lurking for a while, particularly enjoying the new vs old boat debates. My first time out on a sailing boat was 5 years or so ago crewing for a mate, subsequently went on to do comp crew and then completed day skipper in 2019 off the east coast. Haven’t done much since then due to lockdown and certainly feel the need for more experience before taking on skippering for myself. I’m looking to do the dayskipper masterclass that Rubicon3 do to get a bit more skipper coaching and then will look at coastal skipper. I also want to do some focussed boat handling training as this always seems the most stressful part of the trips I’ve been on.

Longer term I’m not sure what path I’ll take - whilst the allure of boat ownership is strong, there are alternatives to consider, fractional ownership, sailing clubs, chartering etc. I keep receiving material from flexisail on the folly of new boat purchase and they lay out some interesting cost comparisons. I‘d be interested in understanding some real world ownership costs for east coast (Ipswich say) and for a 30-33ft boat. Many thanks.

 

[Stemar]

Very much a piece of string!

However, there's a general rule of thumb that states that any boat will require about 10% of its value in maintenance each year. Obviously, some years it'll be more, others less; if the engine goes pop, that's likely to eat several years' budget. To that you have to add fuel, mooring costs and insurance. Mooring costs are a movable feast. A big boat in an expensive marina could be £10K, on a drying mooring with my club, I paid £120 for a 24 footer. Insurance can vary quite a bit, From my bill of £80 last year for for 3rd party only to a few hundred for fully comp.

 

[pvb]

Welcome to the forums!

Boat ownership is a strange thing, there are lots of factors to consider. Obviously, you have to buy the thing in the first place, and insure it, and moor it somewhere, and maintain it. All of which costs money. But there's a "pride of ownership" aspect which comes into play - the enjoyment of knowing that the boat is there (and that it's there for you only, whenever you want to go), the fact that you know all its little nooks and crannies, the research into possible equipment upgrades, etc. If you decide to sell, you'll get a decent chunk of the original outlay back, it's not like buying most cars.

Fractional ownership can work out, but needs to be very carefully arranged, with good contracts, and preferably with people you get on with. But it's not like having your own boat.

The Flexisail offering is basically chartering; again, it's not like having your own boat. However, for a newcomer, it could be interesting to experience a variety of different cruising yachts before heading out and buying one of your own. The Flexisail fleet mainly comprises new Jeanneau/Dufour yachts, so if your ultimate aim is to buy a new(ish) boat, the experience could be useful. If your ultimate aim is to buy a 10/20 year old boat, it won't help much.

As for East Coast costs for a 10m boat, a marina berth in a decent location (Orwell for instance) will cost about £4K a year. Insurance costs depend on value, but let's say another £300 a year. If it's in a marina, you can leave it in the water all year round and only lift out now and then for antifouling - this is what I do. I also lift out in the summer, when marinas have cheap lift out deals. And I only do it every 2 years, because antifouling will last 2 years. So you'd need about £200 worth of antifouling every 2 years, plus a cheap summer lift out deal which would cost about £250, giving an annual cost of £225 for antifouling etc. This is a lot cheaper than lifting out every winter, which is what most people traditionally do.

Then there's maintenance, repairs, upgrades, etc, which is a bit of a "how long is a piece of string" question. You can do most engine maintenance yourself, and routine filters/oil/etc are cheap. If things break, there could be extra costs. Sails eventually need replacing, at around £1K each, depending on spec. Upgrades are open-ended - there's always a new bit of kit or electronics to tempt you!

So the bottom line running cost for a 10m boat in a marina in a nice part of the East Coast is likely to be £5-6K.

 

[pvb]

However, there's a general rule of thumb that states that any boat will require about 10% of its value in maintenance each year.

That might apply to older, cheaper boats, but not to newer boats. We don't know what the OP is thinking of.

 

[Stingo]

In terms of boat length, your boat should be double your age + 5 (in feet)

 

[pvb]

In terms of boat length, your boat should be double your age + 5 (in feet)

Oh dear, I'm seriously under-boated!

 

[Tranona]

Biggest single cost is mooring. This can vary enormously from a few hundred pounds for a club mooring to £4-5k for a good marina berth with a range of alternatives where price is related to convenience and location - depth of water, access, facilities etc. Haulouts, antifoul and basic maintenance engine service £1k, insurance £4-500. Based on 10m boat such as I have (except that I have a top class club marina berth for much the same price as a swinging mooring). If you had a boat this size in good condition you could expect annual fixed costs in a marina berth around £7-8k and a swinging mooring with winter haulout of around £5k. The real killer for a less than new boat is potential replacements, repairs and upgrades, some of which are discretionary but others unavoidable.

While the fixed costs can't be avoided, the secondary category can be if you buy new, or rather delayed, particularly the essential ones. The price of this of course is tying up a big wodge of cash in a depreciating asset. I bought my 10m boat new in 2015 and so far have had only one significant replacement bill, but even then less than £1k, but spent more on upgrades, particularly a cruising chute and now considering a further sail upgrade. However all discretionary. The big unknown with new boats is loss of value, particularly short term. Up until recently this has been significant because until 5 or 6 years ago new boat prices had been largely static and a drop of 20% in the first year was not uncommon, rising to 40% or so after 5 years (regular production boats, not up market ones). However in recent times this has changed as new prices have jumped, sales have fallen and with the effects of covid and Brexit, supply of later model used boats has dried up. The last boat comparable to mine that sold went for over 80% of what I paid 5 years ago. However a new boat to similar spec as mine would cost close to 45% more than I paid! Not surprising that prices of good recent boats have gone up 10-15% in the last year.

People buy new for all sorts of reasons, but it really only makes sense financially if you have long time horizons. Probably the biggest group of new boat buyers are mature and retired or nearly who are looking at 10-15 years of ownership and have stable lives and incomes. The loss of capital value over that period is less of an issue (you can't take it with you!) and careful maintenance keeps replacement cost under control. You can see (or could until recently) many boats on the market from the early to mid 2000s of this type which are only one or maybe two owner which make good buys. The other big plus of buying new is that you can spec it to your choice and often at lower cost than adding items later.

Used boats also of course can lose value, but once they get past 10 years or so this loss slows IF the boat is kept up to scratch, but can plummet if not. There is a cost of keeping up in replacements, repairs and upgrades and often these costs are greater than loss of value.

Of course Flexisail take the approach they do. That is because they are only selling the financial value of a slice of the usage time of the yacht. You are not buying the intangibles that go with owning your own boat. The downside for many is the fixed time allocation which takes away the freedom of action and can often mean you have time to use the boat but not necessarily when it is best to use it, primarily because of the UK climate. Such deals are far better value in my opinion when they are for boats in locations with predictable weather and are a good compromise between chartering by the week and total ownership. I bought my first new boat on a charter management deal and for me that was my best boating decision ever. However that was 20 years ago and for various reasons such deals are less attractive these days.

What you choose to do is entirely up to you and your circumstances. Boat ownership is becoming less attractive for the working sector of the population because of the high fixed cost commitment, particularly if you buy at the newer end and just paying for what you use, whether chartering, shared ownership or time share all have their attractions.

 

[Tranona]

Oh dear, I'm seriously under-boated!

I am almost old enough to have Boris's proposed new yacht!

 

[Stingo]

Get a catamaran i.e. 35ft + 5 = 75ft of boat. Sorted

 

[AntarcticPilot]

In terms of boat length, your boat should be double your age + 5 (in feet)

I need a boat nearly 5 times as big!

 

[Concerto]

Both pvb and tranona have give a fair view to costs. For my 32ft Fulmar in Chatham Marina costs £3600 (a free swinging river mooring is about £600) plus £250 for insurance. I also keep my boat in the water over the winter and lift every other year at a cost of about £500 with antifouling paint and new anodes. Having spent the last 7 years renovating and improving my boat to as close to new condition, this has cost just over £25,000 on top of the purchase price of the boat as I have done all the work myself. I could have done this for a lot less but I was fitting some of the higher quality items rather than budget items. However as I still intend to be sailing on this boat in 10 years time, I will have little maintenance costs (similar to a new boat), but overall the total cost of my 40 year old boat will be about a third of a new boat.

A few other irregular costs that have not been mentioned are standing (about £1500) and running rigging (about £750), plus batteries (3 batteries about £350). If you stay away from your berth, then remember visitor berthing will cost you about £30 a night in a marina or up to £20 on a mooring but generally free to anchor. Not to mention the cost of food and drink ashore whilst away.

You will probably find you will need to purchase items like deck shoes, deck boots, oil skins, life jackets and safety lines for every member of your crew. That can cost quite a lot depending on quality, but allow a minimum of £400 per person.

Overall you could find your yearly costs as little as £2500 or up to £8000. I budget for £5,000 to £6,000 for all normal expenses plus extra for improvements to the boat (not maintenance).

This PowerPoint presentation will give you a good idea as to the work involved in renovating Concerto. https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/3/3f/Concerto.pdf If it is of interest to you Concerto will be the Westerly Owners Association boat at the Southampton Boat Show in September and you would be most welcome to come onboard to see an older boat and chat about sailing her as I will be aboard for the duration of the show.

 

[DJE]

But there's a "pride of ownership" aspect which comes into play - the enjoyment of knowing that the boat is there (and that it's there for you only, whenever you want to go), the fact that you know all its little nooks and crannies

And she's provisioned with stuff that we like, she's stocked with our clothes, she's fueled and watered the way we left her. She's ready to go whenever we want without having to cart a load of gear aboard. I don't think I could ever share a boat.

 

[Tranona]

And makes a good high grade garden shed in the dull days of winter pondering what might be good to do next summer.

 

[mjcoon]

Oh dear, I'm seriously under-boated!

By that algorithm, surely everyone is! Sixteen-year-olds with 37 footers?

 

[Marquee]

Great insights. Thank you, much to ponder but no real rush as I want to build my skill levels first. Incidentally I retired early a couple of years back so I have plenty of time on my hands. If I were to buy a boat I suspect it would be in the 10 year old ball park. I love the concept of doing up an older boat, but I suspect I’d end up outsourcing the work and I know that ain’t cheap. I will post my newbie “what boat” question maybe some other time.

 

[pvb]

Great insights. Thank you, much to ponder but no real rush as I want to build my skill levels first. Incidentally I retired early a couple of years back so I have plenty of time on my hands. If I were to buy a boat I suspect it would be in the 10 year old ball park. I love the concept of doing up an older boat, but I suspect I’d end up outsourcing the work and I know that ain’t cheap. I will post my newbie “what boat” question maybe some other time.

Thanks for the feedback! A 10 year old boat might avoid a lot of expense associated with older boats. Much of the work is fairly basic DIY skill level, so you might not need to outsource - plus doing it yourself helps you learn about the boat's systems.

 

[mrming]

To give a view from the lower end of the market, I’m on my second 1980s boat, this one 32ft. I budget to spend the same as the purchase price again by the time I have the boat how I want it. That way I’m going in with my eyes open to the cost. Why don’t I just buy a newer boat? Because unless it’s actually new (see Tranona’s post above) they all need money spending on them. Everyone’s different - I’m (a bit) younger with a young family, I don’t do finance, so I only buy what I can afford to with the money I have spare at the time. I do a lot of the work myself, but also pay people to do things like major engine services and electrics. Maybe when I retire I’ll have a shiny new boat, but for now it’s “classic plastic” for me. ?

 

[Marquee]

This PowerPoint presentation will give you a good idea as to the work involved in renovating Concerto. https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/3/3f/Concerto.pdf If it is of interest to you Concerto will be the Westerly Owners Association boat at the Southampton Boat Show in September and you would be most welcome to come onboard to see an older boat and chat about sailing her as I will be aboard for the duration of the show.

I’ve had a look at your PPT before - great job. I may come down to the boat show - will look you up if I do. I had great intentions of restoring a classic car when I retired, two years in and the thought of cutting out, rubbing down and playing with greasy bits seems to hold no appeal whatsoever. I think I’ll just want to go sailing…..

 

[johnalison]

Owning a boat only makes sense of you make full use of it. When I was working and could only sail occasional weekends and two or three weeks in the summer, we had a swinging mooring at Maylandsea which cost about £600/yr, plus costs to haul out in winter and relaunch. I don’t think that I could have justified marina costs at the time but do now as a luxury that I feel we have earned, and for the much greater use we have had. Sailing is never going to be cheap, but as a package it is no worse than many other pastimes, especially if, like us, you can make it effectively discount against the holidays you would have had instead.

 

[Marmalade]

boat (n. English)... a hole in the water into which you pour money